Today's co-host is Joel Klettke. Joel is a conversion copywriter and the co-founder of Case Study Buddy. Joel is a sought-after consultant, having worked with companies like Hubspot and WP Engine, among others. Today, Joel is talking with us about his strategies around conversion copywriting.
Joel firmly believes that copywriting is 10 percent writing and 90 percent research. To that end, when he's working with clients, he engages with their customers in many different ways to learn all he can about them. Doing comprehensive research is the foundation for good conversion copywriting.
Being a relatively new dad has shaped how Joel views the world and his work. Watching his son be curious about everything, and look at things with wonder has reignited his own curiosity and reopened him to ideas in his own work.
Joel is still focused on conversion copywriting, but he's starting to pull back a bit and dive into Case Study Buddy more and more. He sees it as a blue ocean opportunity and is excited to help clients create this valuable asset for their own companies.
In this episode, we talk about what conversion copywriting is, and what it's not. We also talk about the 5 things we try to understand about our customers and how to make that information work for you. We discuss how to interview your customers for a case study, and then use the case studies in all stages of your business to position the value of your services.
[Tweet "I think a lot of us just zero in on doing the work. And I think there's a time for that. But I think another reason people don't act is fear. Fear that they'll say the wrong thing, fear that they don't know how to do it.' @JoelKlettke'"]
In this episode Joel talked about:
- What conversion copywriting really is.
- The five key elements of great conversion copywriting.
- Why case studies are your best friend for landing new clients.
- Conversion copy understands the client so well that it can preempt anxieties and pain points, so you can know what to say and how to say it.
- The five elements you need to solve for are: purchase triggers, pain points, anxieties, priorities, and awareness. All successful conversion copy answers these questions.
- Case studies are the only piece of content that you can use at every stage of dealing with a client. Whether it's right away or further into the process, you can use these examples to upsell, close a deal, or simply provide valuable information.
Important Mentions in this Episode
Joel Klettke 0:00
I think another reason people don’t do it is fear fear that they’ll say the wrong thing fear that they don’t know how to do it fear of hearing the words know from their clients fear that they’ll hear something they don’t like. Because if you’re having an honest conversation, you will learn things that are not flattering and it hurts in the moment, but it’s certainly it’s important to keep growing.
Jason Resnick 0:32
Welcome to Episode Seven of season six live in the feast. I’m Jason aka rezzz helping you grow your business by having a conversation with someone who’s been there had success and build a business design around the life they want to live. That’s live in the feast. If this is your first time listening, hit that subscribe button so that you get notified every time a new episode drops live in the feast is in your podcast app of choice. If you’ve already heard the show before, then why not leave a review on iTunes or drop us a comment in breaker or cast box. Today’s co host is Joel Klettke. Joel was suggested to me by a number of different people, including some of you, dear listeners, so I was stoked to be able to bring him on and ask him some of the questions around not just copywriting and case studies, but how to leverage them during sales and beyond. In this episode, we dive into how conversion copywriting is not manipulating. It’s not creating desire, it’s actually creating a channel to your service. We also talked about the five things we try to understand about our customers and then how you make that useful. Also how you can actually interview your customers for case study and then use those case studies in all stages of your business to position the value of your services. So this is a great one. So why don’t I just share, and let’s dive in.
Hey, Feasters. Welcome to another episode of live in the feast. I’m here with Joel Klettke. He’s a sought after conversion copywriter for SAS and b2b where he’s helped clients like HubSpot WP Engine turn more visitors into customers. It’s also the founder of case study buddy who are the case study specialist Joel, welcome.
Joel Klettke 2:35
Jason Resnick 2:36
So you’re the man when it comes to conversion, copywriting and well case studies as well, obviously, but being able to leverage those case studies and position them in such a way that sells your value or your clients value. However you write in the case studies, but if that’s okay with you, I’d love to dive in today and chat a little bit more about how copywriting and specifically conversion copywriting positioned you and aligns your pricing with prospective customers. Is that cool? Yeah, definitely. Awesome. So to reset everything, what really is conversion copywriting,
Joel Klettke 3:11
so conversion copywriting, I think a lot of people think of it a lot of different ways. For some people, it’s like black magic, Voodoo manipulation, you know, it’s, it’s spinning words to try to get people to do stuff they otherwise wouldn’t. And I think while there is certainly a degree of let’s, let’s say, manipulation to what I do, it’s it’s never negative manipulation. My goal is a convenient corporate is basically to help my clients understand their clients so much, that they can preempt the anxieties they have, the pains they have, the desires that they have. So we can know what to say and how to say it to help those people make an informed decision. So it’s not about getting them to do something they shouldn’t do, or they don’t want to do, it’s about helping them clearly see the value in an offer, whether that offers download a sign up a purchase, whatever that might be, it’s helping the right people understand what they need to understand in order to make a decision and move forward.
Jason Resnick 4:09
Right. And and that’s the thing, too, it’s like, you know, I’d laugh sometimes when I come across these old school, long sales, copywriting, you know, we’re copy written like, pitches, if you will. And sometimes it’s like, I look at that, and like, you just read a couple of paragraphs, and you’re like, oh, man, how did the heck who wrote this stuff like, but like, I think it’s come full circle where it’s like, and and I’ve said this before on the show, is that, I feel like Nowadays, people want more of that human element to the engagement that they have online, with their brands, with vendors with whoever they’re engaging with. But you said that you never completely manipulating somebody in the wrong way. Or essentially, you’re not manipulating somebody, you’re just conveying your message to somebody in a in a way that helps convert them to the next step. How do you do that effectively?
Joel Klettke 5:06
Yeah, I think it starts by understanding like your job isn’t to create desire, right? It’s not my job to create desire, my job is to channel it to channel, whatever that person already feels and knows and wants and understand. And basically, my job is kind of like jujitsu, right? I’m trying to take all the momentum they have and direct it towards something. So the way you do that I kind of mentioned, you know, previously, you have to understand these people not on a surface level, not like chalk outline, like personas tend to be these chalk outlines. We wish people fit into words like, okay, we sit around a board table or, you know, staff table, we make them up, we’re like, well, it’s, it’s Judy, the soccer mom drives a Prius and Jada, we spit this stuff out in hopes that that’s who people are. But to do this effectively, there’s a quote from john a week, that’s basically 90% of conversion. copywriting isn’t writing only about 10%. That’s, that’s the output. But to know what’s right now to write it, it’s pretty much all analysis and research. So what you do is there’s a lot of conversations and those conversations take different forms. Sometimes we’re running a customer survey, and we’re asking them about their experience, what was life like before? What was life like, during the experience of this product to service? And then what is life like after other times, having conversations with you know, interviews, where we go deep, or we’re doing things like onsite polls, other times, we’re just observing. So we might use tools like heat mapping software, or recorded user sessions to see, well, how do people engage with What’s there? And not just surface level things? Like, will? Do they scroll through it? Or where do they you know, what we’re looking at is where do they stop? What do they pay attention to? What thing that we know they’re looking for? are they missing, right? Because I promise you if you want to be humbled, take something you think is well designed, or well written, put it online, put recording software on it, and watch people engage with it. And you should just be devastated by how nobody operates. We expect so what to do that right. It’s about having these structured conversations with people, we are digging into their experience. And what you’re trying to learn is not just who they are, but what motivates them in that context. How much do they know? What is it they hope to get out of it? What are they afraid of? What are they trying to get rid of? and that sort of thing. So lots of research, lots of conversations. And once you know that stuff, then it’s about putting it together in a conversational way that leads somebody through a natural conversation with your page, even if it’s, you know, at the time one sided them reading, it’s really a two way dialogue.
Jason Resnick 7:40
Hmm, yeah, it’s funny that you say that heat map like for me as a developer, and I work in the basically e commerce space, which I just translate to anybody that’s putting money through a website, heat map is and scroll mapping. And like all of those other kind of tools are, are so effective for me to say, hey, let’s put this in the wild. Let’s see who’s doing what clicking on what looking at what, and then we’ll adjust it accordingly. I did that to myself in my own site. And I noticed that like, even in my navigation, over a course of three months, no person clicked on one of my navigation elements. And I was like, Alright, let’s remove it and put something else up there. Right? Because I thought that was valuable, but maybe not right. And so having that digital conversation for heat maps, and those kind of tools is one thing, because it’s it’s sort of black and white, right? But like, if you survey somebody, and let’s say you just survey 100 or 1000 people, and you get some responses back, how do you best make it such that the responses are digestible?
Joel Klettke 8:43
Yeah. How do you make it useful? Right? And that’s a question that I think over the past few years, I’ve been getting better and better at and learning more and more about. So you’ll remember I said structured conversations. And that’s the important thing. We don’t just talk to people blindly meander, and we have a mission, we have a goal. So there’s, there’s this actually five things we’re trying to understand about these people. And then I’ll quickly explain how you make it useful. So the first thing we want to learn is, what are their pains and purchase triggers. So what’s going on in their life that sends them looking for whatever it is that’s on offer. And then the next thing that we want to know so so their pain points. Next thing we want to know is their anxieties. What might keep the right person from buying, not the wrong person, we don’t care not everyone’s going to like your price. Not everyone’s gonna like your specialty, that’s okay, what might keep the right person for buying. So their pains, their anxieties, we want to know what their priorities are. So not all pains are the same. Not all benefits are the same, not all desired outcomes are the same. We want to know what matters most to them, and why. And then desired outcomes. As I just mentioned, we want to know what it is they’re looking for not just what sends them looking, but what benefit they hope to gain what’s in it for them and that kind of thing. And then the fifth one, and this is the one most people I think get wrong is their awareness level. So if you think about it like this, if I wanted to go with you on a trip, I have to hell and you came with a suitcase it let’s say we’re going to Alaska cruise to Alaska in the winter, and in your suitcase, there’s there’s a towel and some swim trunks, you’re not ready to come with me. I’ve got to help you pack that suitcase with some more things. It’s the same and copyright, what your lead brings with them impacts how they read what they read what they’re interested in. So easy example is it let’s say that you’re offering a discount, you’re like $5 off, I can’t possibly care about that discount until I understand what’s on offer, why it’s valuable to me who it’s for that kind of thing. So awareness levels, the fifth. So when we do this research, the first thing is like, let’s use the surveys example. We’re using very structured questions before, during after type of questions. And we’re asking them questions like, what was going on in your life or your business? That sense? You looking for a solution like ours? You know, what, what else did you try? What didn’t you love about it? dirt for the during section that we might ask them? Was there anything that surprised you about this product or service? What part of this park service was most valuable to you? And why is that? So we ask these qualitative questions or not? Yes, no. And then what we do is we take an aggregate. So I will never analyze on a survey more than 200 questions and to be 200 responses. I mean, and honestly, after 100, he starts seeing diminishing returns because you start to see patterns. And that’s what we’re looking for is patterns, right? What gets mentioned most How is it talked about? What language do they use? So when I’m going through these responses, or when a conversion cover is going through with documenting frequency, how often is a theme coming up? But also the language? How are they talking about it? What words are they using, and by doing that, we start to see this sort of roadmap of Okay, these are the most common pains people are dealing with. This is the way they talk about it. These are the results they come looking for. And these get mentioned most often. So we should probably talk about the same things. And so it is a lot of manual work. A lot of manual tabulating my dream and prayer one day people will get some AI going for this that can speed up my job. But it’s it’s having that conversation with them. And then you take that survey stuff and you go to interviews, yes, the same thing. But the benefit of an interview is you can ask things like why why is that? Why is that so important? You can dig a little more. So you have a clear road map, a clear plan, you ask about that experience, you capture that data, you tabulate it looking for frequency and language. And that starts to paint a picture for Okay, this is what’s useful. And you’ll learn stuff to you’ll, you’ll realize, Oh, this benefit that I’m pushing currently, people care about this totally a thing that wasn’t even on my radar are the people that you think are the decision makers might actually not be the decision makers, right, the people coming to your site might have a chain of command they they have to go through. So you might even learn the buying cycle looks different than you expected. So it’s that kind of systematic looking through tabulating, you know, sort of approach that that makes this stuff valuable and useful and less, you know, conjecture. And more, okay, you’re pretty clearly getting a signal here that these are the things to focus on.
Jason Resnick 13:12
Getting to the heart of what it is that you do, and why it matters to your potential clients, as well as your clients isn’t something that you just going to get off on the back of a phone call. It’s just not presenting somebody, especially a lead with your idea for a new website design build for a logo is just not going to make you stand out, it’s not going to be unique, you have to be comfortable with talking to and listening to your existing clients as Joelle points out here, when I picked up the phone to talk with existing clients, when I was at a very pivotal point in my business, where I was just about to hang it all up, I would finally was able to see the value that I brought to them each and every single day. And it wasn’t what I expected if you want worksheets exercises, and the confidence to do this on a regular basis is with your clients so that you can then position yourself head and shoulders above everyone else in your space, head on over to feast course.com. Today, as a member, you’ll get the processes and templates to not only figure out your ideal client and services that you provide to them, but you’re going to learn how to talk to them and figure out a price to put on those services that makes it a complete no brainer for that client. That’s why I want to invite you to check out feast. By using the code case study you can get your first month for just $20 feast is the community and resource hub for developers and designers ready to get off the project searching hamster wheel and actually run the business that they set out to build feast helps position you in the market with what you do, who you help and helps you build a processes and systems for client management, sales, marketing, delivery. And of course pricing, your business is not the same as everyone else’s. When you become a feast member, you get personalized guidance for myself, it is essential for me to meet you where you are, and make sure that you are getting the exact tools so that you don’t get lost in the shuffle. The moment you sign up, we’re going to have a chat so that I can create a custom syllabus just like a college or university advisor would have resources within fees to meet you where you are. If you want to stop chasing down that next project all the time, so that you can then start living your life. Go to feast course.com today, and use the code case study at checkout for your first month for just $20.
You highlighted there, mostly like surveys and how to look at that stuff, because that was what I asked you. But you mentioned in there, the interviews and why those can be important. And I want to dive a little bit into that a little bit more. And I have a feeling naturally that’s going to go right into case studies. But before we get into that, I like to ask a question and take a step back. What is your defining moment in life so far?
Joel Klettke 16:19
Yeah, I think this question is one that you know, like I, I kind of read it, and I thought about it. And they’ve been they’ve been a lot of them, right? Like there, they’ve been defining moments in like my faith, there’s been defining moments in my work defining moments of life. But I have to say, like the one that’s kind of top of mine now, like I’m fairly new dad, and you grow up with this, eventually you start with this view of the world that I think for a lot of people is like fairly, like optimistic and bright. And you’re curious, and your brain hasn’t been flooded with, you know, dopamine yet. So everything is exciting and new. And I think in time we lose some of that. And so now being a dad and just watching my son as he, like he’s in this face. He’s just curious about everything. And he’s so interested in the stuff going on around him and every little thing and he’s pointing to things and curious about stuff. I think in some way that’s reignited me a little bit, just this curiosity, and it’s translated. I mean, it sounds cheesy way. It’s obviously translated to other parts of my life. But when it comes to my work, I think in some ways, it’s kind of reopened me up to the idea of like, there’s still so much here to learn. And for as much as we think we know, we have great processes for things. There’s always something new to explore. So I think for me lately, that’s probably a pretty defining moment. But there have I mean, in everybody’s life, there been many, but that that’s the one I think is precious for me. Awesome. Well, congratulations. I am a two time new dad. So we just, we just had our second son is two and a half. And
Jason Resnick 17:53
the second son’s Oh, he’s only six weeks old. So I totally get what you’re saying. It’s almost you’re seeing the world through his eyes. And yeah, I mean, even just like my oldest son, TJ, he was born on December 27. So he had almost like a full year before he experienced what Christmas was about. And you know, even in the first year, at one he didn’t really understand, but this last Christmas, he sorta got it a little bit, he got some of the, you know, like Santa Claus and the decorations and understood presence and all those other kind of things. And when he came down, and he saw the presence underneath the tree, like his eyes lit up, and it was just like that. See, that’s what Christmas is like, that’s what just seeing what a kid it’s like how a kid experiences things when you go to the aquarium as simple as like a fish swimming around in the tank is to me because obviously I’m jaded and the world has beaten me down a little bit, but just him he’s like big fish small fish of like, it’s, it’s great. Yeah, so I totally get that I totally get that I know from my my thing. It’s allowed me to open up a liberal, more empathetic, just in the business world, like to come to my you know, into my world into my business. And like, I can almost put myself aside for a minute and just be receptive to who that person is and where they where they come from.
Joel Klettke 19:14
Yeah, I mean, it impacts you, right. And that’s the thing too, you know, like an example of some of the aquarium like Linus. He got this book from his grandparents, right? It’s got this button, you push and it sings this five little monkey song. Well, the first time he pushed it, it scared the hell out of him. Like, he cried, he hated it. Well, fast forward today. And he was like a rat with those pellets. You won’t stop pushing it, but he loves it. But on the empathy thing, I think it’s true. I think, like my parents always used to say, grown up. When we talk about people say, Well, he’s, you know, he’s somebody’s kid, she, she’s somebody’s daughter, right? And you kind of Yeah, you roll your eyes. But now that I got my own, it’s like, yeah, like everybody’s somebody’s kid, and hopefully had parents, you know, it just it changes things it like I say, Jesus, the sounds of thing for me, it’s it’s just shifted some stuff and some good ways. So
Jason Resnick 20:00
yeah, that’s awesome. That’s great. So let me get back to when you were talking about this survey analysis. And then you mentioned interviews, interviews when it comes to, let’s say, case studies. Right, right. And you mentioned like, why is that? Why was that important? Why now those why questions, obviously, those help build up the case study. But so many businesses, so many individuals, especially developers, designers, they don’t take the time to go ahead and talk to clients at an interview level. Why do you think that is? And is there any tips or tricks that you can kind of share that says, hey, look, if you do this, just go ahead. And this makes this whole process easier?
Joel Klettke 20:48
Yeah, I think for the first question that why I mean, as a guy who, you know, I’ve got my own businesses, right, I’ve got case study, buddy, and I got my own consulting. I think one of the things is just when you work in the business so much, it’s hard to pause and pull back and go and back and talk to people. I think there’s that element of we just, we make ourselves busy with the things we think are important in the here. And now I think a lot of us, you know, when there’s money to be made, or the whole make hay while the sun shines thing, it’s really easy to just zero in on doing the work. And I think there’s a time for that. But I think another reason people don’t do it is fear, I think is a big one fear that they’ll say the wrong thing. fear that they don’t know how to do it, fear of hearing the words know from their clients, when they ask if they can talk to them, fear that they’ll hear something they don’t like, because if you’re having an honest conversation, you will learn things that are not flattering, and she hurts in the moment. But it’s certainly it’s important to keep growing. So I think there’s the big one, I think is big to her business and fear. And I think the first one, the way you get around that is what gets scheduled gets done. And so you put it on your calendar, it doesn’t have to be people. And I’ll say this, quite honestly, people tend to find it addictive. Once you’ve done one, and it goes well, you want to do more. So it’s as simple as Okay, listen, whether it’s every week, every other week, you schedule yourself a 15 minute window, you don’t need more than that 1520 minutes, half hour, whatever. And you say, Okay, I’m going to try just each week or every other week to book in one client call and just check in and see how stuffs going see where they’re at, see what we’re learning. The other thing is making it a part of your process, one of the best times to sit down and have a little interview because the adrenaline’s already pumping, and they’re excited and everything is great is right after signing a client, that’s the perfect time to sit down because you have to do some kind of onboarding, anyhow, why not get an interview out of it. So that’s how I think you tackle the time piece, the fear piece, and this ties into pricing as well. It comes down to process, when you have a process for something and you understand why you do things that way and the value for you and the person and on the other end, fear tends to disappear because now it’s just procedure. Like I know what I’m doing. I’m prepped, I’m ready. I’m good to go. So one of the simplest processes some so the easiest things to to take on are first of all, the BDA format before during after simple don’t ask them any questions that are Yes, no. Other than Is it okay, if I record this? Because yes, no questions, that conversation. The second thing is learn to be okay with silence. Most people want to think for a second before they give you a response. The same way you’re nervous about asking, they’re nervous about answering, you know, they they don’t want to screw it up. They don’t want to come across like an idiot the same way you don’t. So learn to be okay with silence. The third thing is it’s okay to ask the same question, a different way, a slightly different way. And the reason for that is the same way that sometimes you know, like, I’m sure, on a podcast, whatever, sometimes you get a little bit then you think of something I go, Oh, I wish I would have said that. Or if you ask the same question slightly different. It’s like giving that person a mulligan, sometimes you can get a little bit more out of them, little bit more of them. And then the next day says just have your stock question set prepped. And, you know, I’m happy to share a resource for one that that I’ve used in the past. But when you have some core questions, then you go and going, Okay, I have kind of a roadmap this BDA format, I got some questions that I’m going to ask, now you can calm down, but worry less about reading off a paper, like a robotic, you know, automaton and have more human conversation. And and this, that’s how you start getting some of the value out of you know, when you really listen, and you’re not focused on it my screen this up, what should I be asking next? When you really listen, that’s when you get the opportunity to go over? That’s interesting. Why is that? Can you tell me more about that? So I think just having a process going in will help obliterate some of that fear. And then honestly, it’s just practice, your first one’s not going to go amazing. If it does, congratulations, your rare, you know, practice it really just talking to people, there’s no, you know, no one’s like sitting there with a clipboard, evaluating your interview skills right off the hop, unless they’re truly abysmal, you’re probably not going to piss somebody off. So it’s just a matter of doing it and having a little process behind it. Sure.
Jason Resnick 25:13
Yeah. I mean, that’s something that I’ve done for a long time. And I didn’t know that people didn’t do it. And it was more of just like, I always had this 15 minute call every quarter with all my clients to kind of just take a temperature. And just kind of I wanted to ask three questions. And it was really just how’s your business doing? Because every business owner loves to talk about their business. So it kind of opens up the conversation a little bit. And then you know, how can I be doing better? I word it in a way that says, How can it be more awesome? Is this just my lack my lingo and how I talk? And the other thing is, is what do you like about working together? Right? And for me, as long as I get those two questions answered, anything else on top of that is just gravy, like those two questions, allow me to do learn more about myself and my business, and maybe some more opportunities for growth? So there’s a couple of things that I want to ask and kind of could be maybe yes, no questions, but people often afraid to put case studies on their website, just like they are afraid to put their price on their website. And I’ve heard similar reasons for why they do that. And for me, it’s a little interesting, because for me, I don’t have a problem putting prices on my website. I understand the reasons not to. But I’m curious, your thoughts like, one? Have you found that to be true? Like people? I Why do I need case studies on my website anyway? Right, like, and to, if you put case studies, should the case studies align with the pricing? And if so, how does that happen? How can you make that work?
Joel Klettke 26:53
Sure, I’ll Break That down. So the first thing is, I think one of the most underestimated things still today, and it’s why I love the field I’m in and the work that I’m doing on the case study front, people tend to think in terms of case studies is only the bottom of the funnel assets, where it’s like, okay, someone’s interested, maybe I’ll send them a case study to help close the deal. And that’s kind of all they think about it. But when you take a step back case studies are one of the few if not the only content assets that you can really use at any stage of your interaction with a customer case studies are great for attracting clients, case studies are great at up selling clients, I’ve used case studies myself to say, Hey, here’s someone who was, you know, debating just doing kind of this tear of audit they were talking about, but they decided to just splurge a little bit, go the next year, here’s a case study on all the value that they saw, I’m not going to sit here and pitch you. Here’s someone else, basically saying, Hey, I made this decision. Here’s what I got out of it. Here’s the value that you as someone like me, is going to get out of it. So I think Yeah, people maybe have some some questions that will, why do I need these in the first place. And to them, I always say like the the only thing your competitors can’t steal from you. They can steal your pricing, they can copy your messaging, they can copy your design, they can copy the way you package your services, a one thing nobody can take from you is your proof. Nobody can take from you that sound. But I’m saying I love working with Jason because he’s so communicative. And he’s so on top of it, like no one can take that from you. Right? That’s a differentiator. And I really do believe we’re entering a point now, where especially whether it’s development, whether it’s copywriting, whether it’s design, whatever it may be proof is going to be the great differentiator have they done it before? Who have they done it for what did those people have to say, because we’re getting this forwards, as other countries and other sides of the world develop more and get more proficient and that English barrier comes down, but the cost point stays the same. You know, like, we’re getting to a point where your proof is going to be what helps you stand out what helps you close the deal, what sets you apart. So that fear I find pretty easy to combat because I can rattle off 10 different ways. Anyone can use a case study from RFP to sending out emails as cold outreach to have them as blog posts, send them as guest post ads, I can go on and on and on the utility these things is nuts. On the pricing side of things, remember that I talked about when you’re talking, we’re getting ready for an interview, when you have a process. And you know the value of that process, it’s much easier go through the thing. And the same goes with pricing. When you understand what goes into what you’re selling to someone was supposed to start in terms of services in particular, you’ve got a process for the way you do things, and it’s valuable for you, but it’s also valuable for them. And when you know that process, and you can sell the value of that process at every stage, you’re more confident charging more, you’re more justified in charging more at least in the eyes of the client. Like there’s confidence. And there’s a differential that comes there. Now you add stories to the mix. And what that does is takes the burden of selling the value of that process and off of you. So if you’ve got pricing on your say that I’m for my for what it’s worth, I do think you should have in most cases pricing on your site at least, like I’ve done all kinds of experience with pricing on you know, from my own services and had some big wins. Because this when you’ve got prices listed, now you can take whether it’s a full case study, or just a sound bite from that case study somebody saying, hey, this was worth every penny. And here’s why case studies become this this huge justify or for the cost, you know, the price you want to charge. And not just that, but why you’re worth it, when you have these successes behind you when you have these others advocating for you. Now, again, it’s not the same as you go on Fiverr, I can hire X amount of you know, or upward whatever, thousands of developers do x y Zed, why would I choose you? Well, that’s the guy to work with soon. So and they were really thrilled. And there’s a safety and a confidence and a comfort in that for a customer for a lead. So you know, putting those two and three proximity, they certainly feed off each other. And a good case study can absolutely help you upsell or justify what it is you want to charge. Hmm,
Jason Resnick 31:09
I think it’s what you said there is is kind of how I think about it as well is that the case study, especially if somebody maybe in the readers, I they cannot align where they’re in the same industry, or they can relate to the problem or whatever, when they read that three sentence. And I want to ask this in a second, but three sentences aligned with the price and saying, hey, look, this was worth every penny. We got 10 X on our return, whatever the actual sentence says, but then they say, oh, okay, well, this person, I’m recognize this person or they’re in the same space that I am in, I guess it helps them also align their budget accordingly. Right, like, because if they come to the table, and let’s just say they have $5,000 on the budget, but your prices a 10. And you have three case studies that this person can identify with that all validate the value, the price that you’re charging and their return, then they can say, okay, maybe I need to rethink things. And it kind of, and it’s not just you selling this thing. It’s not just you saying, Hey, this is why this is worth this, you have that traction of proof from those case studies. The question I want to ask you is, when you think of case studies, do you think of the full blown out Hey, here was the problem? Here’s the solution. Here’s the process. Here’s the before and afters, here’s the the whole thing, or can a case study be three sentences?
Joel Klettke 32:47
I think it’s really context specific. And that’s why you know, for for clients, especially, there’s many ways to use one story. And we talked about earlier when we’re talking about conversion copy and that awareness level, right? And being wherever customers context is really mission critical. Like, if I’m doing cold outreach, there’s no way I’m sending that person, a nine page case study, because they’re never going to read it. Right. I need to hook them in. So I’ll probably send them something pretty short, pretty tight, pretty condensed. I think, you know, rephrasing case studies, really what we’re talking about is customer success stories. That’s the heart of it, you’re telling a compelling story. Sometimes you tell that story short, sometimes he’s tell that story long, there is room for those long case studies. So I mean, we like if you have a blog posts really want to blow with your process, you really want to talk about, you know, the thought and the thinking that went into something, there’s room for that. But there’s also room on your site to have kind of a teaser. But the typical like we have two typical formats, we have a snapshot, we have a narrative, the snapshot is typically what you know, problem solution results, one paragraph, you know, basically to three sentences per section. One quote from the customer procession, that’s it very quick, very likely read rate for situations where someone just needs to see the facts, the outcome, that’s all they need to see. And then sometimes we’ll use that to point to something more in depth that they really want to dig. I think one of the things that is really critical, though, and a big mistake a lot of people make is we tend to want to have these like magicians aha moments where like, pull back the curtain at the very end. And it’s like toda, here’s what a lot it up to. And you have to flip that on its head, you always want to lead with the result, you lead with the big. So what you lead with the big metric, or the big quoted that you don’t have to have metrics have a great study, you can have, you know, you can have a great study with absolutely no percentages or numbers whatsoever. It’s possible, but you want to lead with the big, so what, and then whatever situation appropriate in situations where people are time starved, or they just want the facts, you lead with something kind of light in situations where that detail is valuable to the consideration process, then you’ll have something more in depth. So sometimes it pays to have three different versions of the exact same story and just use them differently, as appropriate in the same way that you know, like if your house is on fire, and you’re calling 911, that calls probably going to be pretty short. But you would hope that the analysis of what caused the fight you hope that call me a little bit longer, you know, so different conversations for different situations.
Jason Resnick 35:26
Yeah, no, it makes total sense. So I do want to be mindful of our time here. So before I let you go here, you have a free guide that talks about the step by steps of getting a case study, can you share with us one of those critical steps that we really could benefit from?
Joel Klettke 35:44
Yeah, I think it’s it’s one that people don’t think of, and it’s one of the most missed, because people are often just thrilled to get any success story at all. But before you do an ounce of writing before you pick up the phone to call anyone before you start scheduling anything. So stop and think about your business. And where are you trying to grow? Are you trying to grow into a new market? Are you trying to push a new service? Are you trying to emphasize a certain part of your business or a certain differentiator? Stop and identify yourself? Well, what’s the strategy here? What are we? Who are we trying to reach? What are we trying to communicate, that should influence who you talk to? And which stories you choose to tell? Yes, it’s better to have any story than no story, a positive bit of proof doesn’t hurt. But it’s more valuable and meaningful. Let’s say that, you know, you’re really trying to say, okay, you know, we’re now doing front and back end development. But if people don’t know us as a front end developer, well, we should get some cases, but our backend work that will help people see and understand the value of having one shop that takes care of both right? Simple when I say it seems intuitive, almost nobody takes that step to stop and think what stories are going to have the most impact for us, because we don’t just want great quotes and great numbers. We want great quotes and great numbers and great results that help us sell or help us reach the right people. So that I think would be the one that I would mention. And like you say that guide walks through all the different steps, everything from getting buy into, you know how to format it and think about it, but that one, I said, I would say is the most overlooked and one of the most valuable and doesn’t have to take a long time to do so have a strategy. Think before you pick up the phone or just act?
Jason Resnick 37:36
Yeah, that’s super smart. And that was something that I learned the hard way is, I basically had some, before the iteration of the website that I had now, I had some case studies of theme builds from clients and that I, you know, that I built out and they were great clients and great projects and all that and, and yet I didn’t want to do with the belt anymore. Yet, people that were coming to our website wanting me to do theme builds, and I’m like, Well, why? Why is this keep happening? And I’m like, oh, how about you take down the stuff there?
Joel Klettke 38:12
I mean, the easiest. It’s a line someone shared with me my very first year of going on my own, it’s always stuck with me. The work you display is the work you attract. If you don’t want to do websites for for yoga instructors anymore. Maybe Don’t show your profile full of yoga instructor websites. That’s that’s what you’re gonna get more.
Jason Resnick 38:33
Yeah, awesome. Well, this has been amazing, Joel, what’s up next in the next 612 months with you.
Joel Klettke 38:40
So I’m, I’m kind of in a transitional period, I think the bulk of my work my income, my reputation, I think is still in the conversion copywriting side. I’ve done you know, I’ve had some great clients there. And I’m certainly going to continue to do that. But I’m slowly dialing that back a bit on the back half of this year case study, buddy, just really, we see as blue ocean, there’s a lot of opportunity there. And so we’ve been adding team members, all contractors right now project manager, another interviewer. And so we’re really starting now to press into that strategy side and helping clients with that, we’ve now rolled out a video offering, we’ve rolled out you know, in the past, all of our output was PDFs. Now we’re able to do static pages for people, which is really exciting and a lot more utility there. So I just continuing to grow case anybody on that side and, and develop that out. That’s going to be my focus kind of for the back half of this year. And I’m excited to see where it goes.
Jason Resnick 39:38
Awesome. Yeah. And for you listening, I’m going to link up everything that we mentioned here, especially the free guy case study, buddy, we can go check out Joel and what he’s doing there, Joel’s website as well. We’ll definitely link up all of those in the show notes. Joel, where can people reach out and say, Thanks for sharing your wisdom today?
Joel Klettke 39:58
Yeah, definitely. I mean, LinkedIn, my inbox is always on there. I’m happy to connect with anybody and everybody you can email me at Joel at case study video. com if you have a specific question, and I can’t promise the 24 hour response with all I’m always you know, I reply to everyone sometimes just takes a bit. And Twitter. I’m super active on Twitter, too. So at Joel Klettke is where you can find me there and always excited to talk to people and just hear what folks are working on and learn something new, you know, explorer from from a different perspective as well.
Jason Resnick 40:30
Yeah. Awesome. Just like our sons.
Joel Klettke 40:32
Jason Resnick 40:34
Awesome. Well, thanks again, Joel.
Joel Klettke 40:35
Yeah, cheers. Thanks for having me on.
Jason Resnick 40:37
And for everyone listening. Until next time, short time to live in the feast.
If you enjoyed today’s episode, I can speak for both Joel and myself by saying that we’d love to hear the one take the way you got from this episode. To be honest with you, my notes, I have a whole bunch. So I’d love to hear the just one. It’s really super simple. In the podcast app of choice, presumably this one that you’re listening to right now, drop in a comment or review or go ahead and share it in a tweet and tag me at Brett’s also hit that subscribe button so that you’ll be the first to listen in next week, when we’ll be back with April Dunford who literally wrote the book on positioning called obviously awesome. Until then, short time to live in the feast.
Season 6: Pricing
More episodes in this season:
S06 E01 – Value-based Pricing, Impactful SEO Techniques, and Creating Great Client Relationships with Brendan Hufford
S06 E02 – Generosity, Pay What You Want Pricing, and Lowering the Barrier to Entry with Tom Morkes
S06 E03 – Developing Client Relationships, Leveling Up Your Pricing, and Getting Better at Business with Chris Do
S06 E04 - LinkedIn, Pricing Strategies, and Why Video is the Medium of the Future with David Kilkelly
S06 E05 - Mindset and How Goals Inform Your Pricing with Vito Peleg
S06 E06 - Consulting, Pricing, and Understanding your Clients with Hillary Weiss
S06 E07 - Case Studies, Client Research, and How To Create Killer Conversion Copywriting with Joel Klettke
S06 E08 - Story Lines, Positioning, and How To Differentiate Your Business with April Dunford
S06 E09 - Pricing Your Productized Services and Working with Intention with Brian Casel
S06 E10 - Knowing Your Audience, Making Mistakes, and Pricing Products vs Services with Jack McDade
S06 E11 - Creating Results and Building Relationships Through Your Pricing with Mor Cohen
S06 E12 - Undercharging, Targeting the Wrong Audience, and What You Should Do About It with Alex McClafferty