S07 E02 – Creating Flywheels, Asking the Right Questions, and Reverse-Engineering Your Ideal Clients with Nathan Barry

Live In The Feast - Nathan Barry

Today’s co-host is Nathan Barry. Nathan is the founder of ConvertKit. Many of you know ConvertKit as an e-mail marketing platform, but there’s more to the story.

Nathan started his career as a blogger and creator before transitioning into building products. He also wrote several books and built a thriving solo business before launching ConvertKit.

Much of Nathan’s drive came from watching his parents struggle with money when he was growing up. He sees this as a defining moment in his life because he knew from the time he was 12 that he never wanted to have those same struggles.

He learned early on that making money wouldn’t just happen on its own. He had to work for it, and practice, and build the skill of making money. While working his way through college, he began seeing the internet as a way to do something he loved, and make money doing it.

Currently, Nathan is working on his hobby farm (and preparing for a new baby!), as well as continuing to grow ConvertKit and launching new features.

In this episode, we dive into identifying your ideal client, as well as some exercises that Nathan has used to figure out what types of projects and customers to work with. Also, Nathan goes into some questions you can ask that will help you create the life you want, as well as improve conversations throughout your business.

In this episode Nathan talks about:

  • How he got into the world of digital marketing, and ultimately ConvertKit.
  • Identifying your ideal client by knowing who they are not.
  • How to define the ideal employee and the questions you need to ask.

Main Takeaways

  • Sometimes it’s easier to figure out who you should exclude from your marketing efforts rather than include, as it allows the quality content to rise to the top. When you narrow it down by those criteria, it becomes apparent who you should focus on.
  • Asking the right questions is critical. Ask questions of yourself and others that will help you figure out what your real goals are.
  • Ask yourself: if this employee went to work for the competition tomorrow, how upset would I be? This is a great way to determine your ideal employee.

Important Mentions in this Episode

Transcript

Nathan Barry 0:00
So it’s not about how do I get one customer? How do I increase revenue? Or chasing all these different things? It’s what system can I create? And it’s going to result in more customers like this more revenue. Right? So it’s not about find this customer than the next customer than the next customer. It’s right these kind of blog posts, which attract this customer, we get these results that I write a case study. And then I promote that case study on my blog, which attracts these kind of customers, right? And so you you’re doing the same activities over and over again. Rather than spinning your wheels are turning in all these different directions.

Jason Resnick 0:46
Welcome to Episode Two of season seven of live in the feast. I’m Jason aka rezzz helping you grow your business by having a conversation with someone who’s been there had success and built the business designed around the life they want to live, that’s live in the feast. If this is your first time listening, hit that subscribe button so that you get notified every time a new episode drops. Live in the feast is in your podcast app of choice. If it’s not, let me know. And I’ll get it there for you. If you’ve heard the show before, why not leave us a review on iTunes or drop us a comment in on breaker or cast box. Today’s co host is Nathan Barry. Nathan is the founder of ConvertKit and ConvertKit’s mission is to help creators earn a living. Many of you know ConvertKit as an email marketing platform. And this conversation is so awesome. We actually tailed off the business conversation a bit and you will hear how Nathan’s defining moments in life is playing out through the business. In this episode, we dive into knowing who your ideal client is not is sometimes the way to figuring out who it is. We also dive into some exercises that Nathan has done to figure out what types of projects and customers to work with. And as I mentioned, we dive into a bit of a sidebar on how to ask yourself some questions that have shaped your life and questions that you can really level up the conversations you have with not just business folks and colleagues, but also your friends and family. This is a great one. So here’s Nathan.

Hey Feasters is welcome to another episode of living the feast and I am really super excited to have Nathan on the show. Welcome, Nathan.

Nathan Barry 3:12
Thanks for having me on.

Jason Resnick 3:12
Yeah, thanks for being here. I really wanted to have you on To talk about the ideal client, because you’ve sort of run the gamut, right? Like you are a blogger and you’re a designer, and now you’ve you’ve transitioned to build products in that space, but then you’ve now built ConvertKit. And so the ideal customer is always this fuzzy thing. It’s almost like a treasure island, if you will, like if you don’t have one you like, how did you get that? And so I thought you’d be perfect to talk about this. So first off, who is your ideal customer?

Nathan Barry 3:32
Yeah, so for us and for conversion, its creators, which is obviously a really broad term, but creators are specifically trying to reach you know, grow and reach their audience. So you end up with like Sonos, easier to define it based on how it’s not. Right. And so for us, you know, on one end, at the high end, we’ve got Tim Ferriss customer, right, so what makes him ideal is that he’s a giant email list, but running a small team that might be opposed to like a magazine or a TV network, right when they would have that same level of reach, but they’d have a 15 person marketing department. And they would be inclined to use a totally different kind of tool, or like a small and you know, someone who’s built a couple thousand email subscribers and they’re putting out, you know, their podcast episodes or blog posts or things like that. But they’re more selling like digital products versus selling, not necessarily consulting the same way but, but they’re not trying to make one off sales as much, right? Get someone that would not be a good fit is somebody who is like, one’s a lot more CRM function I like okay, Jason, I just got off the phone. Let me log the notes. I think I can close this deal, right? Because a lot our tool is built for people who are like, hey, I’ve got 1000 people on this list. I want to see how many of them I can get to buy my $40 course. Right? So that’s kind of thing we we range it in creators and then the cool thing is we get to work with a lot of people we’re really, really proud to have them as customers. And we get excited about that side of it.

Jason Resnick 4:52
So before ConvertKit, designer, he wrote a book blogger, tell me a little bit about how you did you even think about the ideal customer at that point in time when you were first starting down this a digital marketing landscape, if you will.

Nathan Barry 5:11
No, I don’t think I did. Well, maybe that’s not true. Let me think back. Right. So, getting started building an email is one of the first thing that I did when I knew I was gonna focus on App design development. You know, I’m, I knew I was gonna write a book called the calling of the episode handbook about iOS design. I did outline it of like, okay, who is this for? Because I didn’t know that it wasn’t going to be for professional designers who are wanting to further their iOS design career. So I kind of outlined to two avatars for it. One would be developers who are getting into building iPhone apps and want to be able to design their own design their own apps and you know, make it look better and that kind of thing, if they’re not working with a designer, and then the other side would be you know, new designers getting into app development of your experience designer, or an intermediate designer, but you’re new to the iOS world. Or maybe you’re just brand new, because so many people have an idea for an app. Right? Right. And so that’s kind of how I narrowed it down of your I wanted it to be able to serve ISIS three or four avatars, right? The developer, the new designer, and then also kind of the business person who’s like, I got an idea for an app, how do I do it, and I can take them through those wire framing stages. And so then, with those avatars, I can really outline you know, the types of content for them. And then with my next book, which was on designing web applications, actually wrote that to my brother in law, because he knew web design, and he was learning that, but he started getting to user experience and things that are specific to designing software. And it made it much easier for me to write the book. When I buy there’s some times where I write fill up, comma, enter, enter and write that chapter to him, which is that’s advice. I think I first heard from Tim Ferriss. I think he got it from me, but of writing it to a specific person. So having that avatar in your head works really well. And I’ve used it a lot. So

Jason Resnick 7:04
that book, I guess the second book flowed a lot easier than the first one because of that, but

Nathan Barry 7:10
Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Cuz you’re just thinking like, Okay, if you and I were to sit down, and you’re going to teach me something, right, that’s way easier. You’re like, Okay, let me think about Nathan’s business. Okay, this is what I’m going to teach you. Right? And it’s just, it’s off the cuff, it flows easily. Right? Like, it’s just a much more natural conversation. Whereas, you getting up to present this imaginary. You’re like, trying to imagine the all these chairs full of people and you’re like, Okay, as the professor, what should I teach? You know, versus like, I know, you and I were hanging out in New York was that four or five months ago, it’s just like, sitting at the bar, having a natural conversation. Like, it’s so easy. And so you take like that mindset, and then just be like, cool. What’s the teaching version of that? Yeah, it’s way easier when you know your persona,

Jason Resnick 7:53
because there’s that context, you kind of understand that personal little bit more and there’s like a specificity to it. That way. You can say then, hey, look, I know that there’s a gap here that you know, like, saying, like Jason has a gap in this knowledge base that I can feel. And I can speak to that. So I’m curious because you mentioned that ConvertKit now is targeted towards creators. And that’s a broad audience, right? I mean, we have that video series that talks like about, you know, tells the stories of so many different people of different walks of life, like Lego brick guy, and, you know, like, all these athletes and things of that nature, like, like, it just seems so vast, different. So how are you targeting the actual doing of the person, right, like the action? What is it that they’re actually doing? And you said that they’re looking to grow their email list and grow their audience and sell their thing? Is that how you narrow the focus of that ideal customer?

Nathan Barry 8:54
Yeah, there’s part of that. It’s just we’re trying to figure out how exactly the phrase But it’s really these, this group of people who, their creators, right, they make things on a regular basis. But also they have, they have something that they want to share, like they have a voice that they want to put out there. And so if I were to sum that up and be like creators with something to say, and like that’s still incredibly broad, right, because if you look at the I’m a blogger project that you’re referencing, and I’ll, if anyone wants to luck will come to the link in the show notes. Those are all free to watch online and all that. I am a blogger dot CEO, but right you’ve got the fantasy footballers, you’ve run a fantasy football podcast, you’ve got Vanessa Levin, who runs a site called pre k pages where she’s making hundreds of thousands of dollars helping kindergarten and preschool teachers, like with their classrooms, with downloadable and all that, right. The thing that’s unique about all of them as you weave through all these different stories is that they’re creators with a genuine passion for what they’re working on. They believe that the more people they reach, like the bigger impact they can have. And then finally, they be They can earn earn a living from it. And so they have that focus on the quality and, you know, essentially and we see the same same traits across all these different industries and everything else. And so going to the, who does this exclude? Do you think whenever you’re thinking of positioning is really helpful to make that list, right? The people that excludes is anyone who’s in the get rich quick side of things, or we always joke from Ontario, we always referred to as by the list, burn the list. The people who like they’re just an email list to them is just dollar signs. And they’re just like, however, you require the people on the list, and then you pitch them as hard as possible, like Well, that’s, that’s done now we got to do it all over again. And there’s so many of those people out there and in that spectrum of the internet marketing get rich quick, like one weird trick to make more money. And we’re trying to be very deliberate about excluding those people. And so well, creators who have something to say creators with a voice might seem incredibly broad when you start too narrow it now I then like, okay, no, I understand who it is. And then who specifically

Jason Resnick 11:13
has a great point. And as I think back on when I first decided to specialize my business, it was actually easier to define who I didn’t want to work with. If you are struggling with trying to figure out who your ideal client is, whether that is you’re narrowing your focus on a specific industry, a platform or toolset, encourage you just start with those people and projects and things that you don’t want to work with. The client quad as I call it is a framework that I’ve developed to help define my ideal client. And I teach my coaching clients and features like yourself, how to use this framework, so that it really highlights this aspect of the exercise as well saying No to specific projects, people, companies, beliefs, values, and objectives of others, really help start to bring light to those types of clients that are made for you. If you want worksheets, exercises and the ability to create that ideal client and precise solution to offer that client, so that you can be the go to resource and build a sustainable business, head over to feast academy.com today, as a member, you’ll get the processes and templates to not only figure out who your ideal client is, and the services that you provide to them. You’ll also learn how to figure out how to price to put a price on those services so that it makes it a complete no brainer for the client. That’s why I want to invite you to check out feast by using the code red flag. All one word, you can get your first month for only $20 feast is the community and resource hub for developers and designers ready to get off the project searching hamster wheel and actually run the business that they set out to build. feast helps position you in the marketplace with what you do, who you help and helps you build the processes and systems for client management, sales, marketing, delivery and pricing. Your business isn’t the same as everyone else’s. And when you become a member of feast, you get personalized guidance from myself. It is essential for me to meet you where you are, and make sure that you’re getting the exact tools so that you don’t get lost in the shuffle. The moment you sign up, we’re going to have a chat so that I could create a custom syllabus of resources within feast to meet you where you are. You want to stop chasing down that next project all the time, so that you could start living your life go to fi academy.com and use the code red flag all one word at checkout for your first month for only $20. I think that’s so important to know, to understand who it is that you serve, but also who you don’t serve as well. Yeah, it’s something I’ve struggled with, I still do with the services side of the business. You know, almost every time a lead comes through, that’s a little like, it’s like, maybe I shouldn’t pick this one on right. So it’s certainly a valid point there. It’s funny that you mentioned about the the traits, right because the characteristics of it because I’ve followed you for a long, long time, we’ve met 90 York and full disclosure, I’m a convert customer and all the rest of it, but the culture that ConvertKit showcases and presents and All of that, for me attracts that by right like it attracts those traits and it’s that that sincerity that genuine nature of the whole culture and the idea of ConvertKit, the philosophy behind converted. For me that’s, that’s why when I get clients and their, you know, maybe they’re from a different other ESP and they say hey, what do you recommend? If I get their vibe, hey convert could be a nice solution for you. And that’s sort of like, you don’t know that that’s a 45 year old woman or a 26 year old guy, or you know, like, it doesn’t matter. It’s the characteristics and those traits. So that’s what I’ve always struggled with, and, you know, defining who I serve, and my ideal client and for what a lot of people also say that say, like these demographic things, I don’t care if somebody is driving a Mercedes to sell my website, logo design, and that doesn’t make a difference to me, right. And so it’s good to hear you say that. I like to ask everybody This this question, what is your defining moment in life? so far?

Nathan Barry 16:05
My defining moment. And I would say, I’ll have to write about this more at some point. But I grew up in a family with not not much money. And so watching, there’s specific moments I can point you’re probably but like watching my parents always struggle with money. And that. That being said, they actually probably the version of this question that I’ve asked people before, is what the time in your life that you said, that will never be me? Because that’s often a defining moment. Like one thing for me is watching my parents struggle with money and not being such a big thing. So I had this moment of like, okay, you know, maybe I’m 11 or 12, as I’m observing this, and I’m going that will never be me. When I grow up. I have no idea how, but I’m not going to struggle with money. And particularly watching my parents get divorced largely through a lot of that. So that’d be one defining moment. But that’s like in a story. That’s the inciting incident. That’s the Yeah, but How, right, you know. And so then the next defining moment for me would come, you know, probably seven years later of reading Jason freed, and him talking about making money as a skill, you can get better at it over time, just like buying the jobs or anything else. It’s interesting. A good friend of mine, Tim growl, has this isn’t like it’s one of his defining moments as well. I’ve run like, Wait a second. Wait, what it says, Okay, I wouldn’t expect to sit down at the piano and be able to play like an amazing piano piece from the beginning. And I shouldn’t expect it, you know, jump in and be able to make money really well. And if you’re earning a lot, and I’m earning a little, then like, it’s because you’ve built skills over time, just like if you’re incredible at playing this piano piece, or like, it’s because you’ve practiced and you’ve built up to it over the years. And so what that does, right, if you combine these two moments, is it saying, one I never want to worry about money again, into it is 100% within my control, it’s something that I can take on and build from there so that you get two for the price of one.

Jason Resnick 18:04
Yeah, no, that’s awesome. And I love the your question too, because I know specifically, I had a very similar moment where I was, I was 14, I was a stock boy at a fabric store at the time. Obviously not the place, a teenage boy wants to be walking. But I remember specifically sitting on the floor, organizing zippers of all things and just different colors on hooks and things. And saying to myself, I vowed to myself this day, that I will never work at a job that I despise getting up doing, right. And that for me, 14 years old, I had no idea that that’s even possible, right? Like, and this is, you know, this was pre internet. So who wasn’t like, you know, like, I could just get up and the next morning and code, right, like,

Nathan Barry 18:52
let me start a YouTube channel,

Jason Resnick 18:53
right? Like, we couldn’t do this stuff, right. And so, you know, and I was on the traditional path to go to college and And all that and sit at a cube somewhere, maybe and that sort of stuff. But when when that the internet came when I was in college, I was like, hey, this might be that moment, right? Like how I could piece these two things together. And, you know, obviously, it’s evolved over time. But like, the reason why is because I just didn’t want my life to live like that. Like, I didn’t want to be like that, like, my mom hated her jobs, like and I was like, in she was always miserable, and things of that nature. Like, she had to, you know, kind of come home and decompress a little bit, because she was always so stressed at work and things and right, like, you know, I was like, I don’t want that, like, I want to be enjoying my life. And so that was, that was one of those points, I guess those defining moments, if you will, right.

Nathan Barry 19:43
Yeah. What I think I mean, I’d encourage everybody listening, like, take some of those questions, right? What’s the defining moment in your life? What’s the time that you said that will never be me? Another favorite of mine is what’s an early memory that defined or shaped your relationship to money because in you know, for some people that all touch on some other things, but next time you’re at a dinner party, whatever else, you know, friends it like it’s a super casual conversation, like ask one of those questions. Two other favorites. This one’s from Jason Gaynor. He asks a year from now we’re, you know, the same group of us are gathered together with a bottle of champagne. What are we celebrating? And it’s like a way to get to hopes and dreams and aspirations. And then another really easy one is what’s the thing you’re most proud of, in the last six months? Because people don’t brag about themselves and say like, no, no. Now you have to answer this question. You know, and you get to say like, okay, but I am really proud about this. So those are the things that like, Good questions like that just like level up conversations, relationships and everything else, and you should walk away going, Wow, that was that was real connection.

Jason Resnick 20:46
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And the reason why I like to ask that question is because while the podcast is a half hour, 40 minutes or so, like it’s sometimes that defining moment, most times that defining moment, interweaves everything that that person is about and how successful they are, where they go in their career, those sort of things, even if it is a personal moment and so I always like to ask that question to just sort of get deeper if you will embed into that person’s you know, think thought process how they think you know, just all that sort of stuff so john Lee Dumas I can’t credit that question john Lee Dumas again from him so hat the jail the on that one

Nathan Barry 21:25
you talking about it playing through into whatever you say or as like how play so your whole life, right can work its mission. You can see it on our site and everything is we exist help creators are living because I’m playing out that defining moment. I’m saying I hey, this is something that you can take in your control. You can earn a living through doing this work that you love through things that matter to you. And you don’t have to be at the mercy of some job or limited finances and stuff like that. And we’re going to build the tools and training and everything to help you do that. And so you’re absolutely right, that like these defining moments. Well, yeah, the defining Moments they carry all the way through.

Jason Resnick 22:02
Absolutely. Yeah, that’s awesome. And again, to uncover those character traits, right? Like, one, you have a team, right? It’s not just you. Obviously, if you don’t know what ConvertKit is, it’s an email marketing platform that helps you build your email marketing list that helps you send those emails segment and all those good things, create automation and all that. But you have a team, you have a support team, you have a marketing team, you have, you know, a whole bunch of other members of your team that do various different things or wear different hats in the same organization. So to put that philosophy out there and attract the team that you have, you sort of had to do that ideal employee as well. Right?

Nathan Barry 22:43
Yeah. So there’s two sides of it. One focusing on the customer side from soccer. What’s really helpful is say you have at least 25 customers, let’s say we have a service business, designing websites, and over the last however many years we’ve designed at least 25 websites, we probably don’t have a lot of information on Which ones we enjoyed or not? Right? If you might raise the surface of like, Oh, this was really fun. That’s exactly the kind of work I want to do. But like not many people take that kind of approach to it in the same way that not very many people take that approach, like how they spend their days. And one thing that I’ve started doing and it sounds a little bit nerdy, is I started writing the quality of my days, I just want to five, like how much I enjoy this, I’d say it was a four out of five, or like middle road, three out of five, totally average, because I like I keep this little time journal, just a little notebook of like, what I spend my time on my to do list, that kind of thing. And then at the end of the day, I just read it three to five, okay? So even though the right or whatever, but if you went back and did the same thing with clients, or customers or your of your product, right, you go through and you’re like, one out of five. That was a mistake, you know, five out of five, this is the kind of work that I do. You just run through a gut feeling, right? If you pull up all those old proposals and right on top of them, you separate them into files, then you know what 2025 projects you would I bet it would become very clear. The fourth A five and five out of five projects and you’re like, Okay, well there’s, you know, four or five proposals in those stacks. Like, let’s grab those, how do I find more people like that? And it becomes really easy. The question for, for team members is a little bit different. But it’s similar idea. And it’s basically you would go through and write your team. I would not recommend like disclosing. But you do it. The question is not how effective is this person? How good are they to work with it? If this person switch to a key role at my biggest competitor? how upset would I be? And because if you think about it, not sure, there’s people who you know what, they do a good job, and they get the job done things like that. If they move to a competitor, you know, all their weaknesses, and you’re like, honestly, I’m not that worried about competing against them. And there’s other people were like, Oh, hell no, like, I need this person on my team. Like I would freak out if they went to my biggest competitor. And that’s a good lens to put it through. And then you can kind of look at, you could write that one Five if you want to look at Okay, who are the people that are in those pockets? Let’s look back to and make notes on how did they join the team where they recruited? Do they come through job boards? When we were hiring them? Was it immediately apparent or? Or did they take time to really grow into their role and really thrive? Which is what trends can we find them? And then if I wanted to find more people like these, like these five of these 20 people or whatever, how would I do that? And that’s how I go about.

Jason Resnick 25:25
Yeah, I like that. I mean, I do a similar thing about reading my days, I basically just give it three words, three adjectives. And I use notion Now I use bullet journal for a long long time, but I did the same thing. notion allows me to now actually visually see and I just give the adjectives red, green, yellow, okay, so that I can essentially just look at like a week and tell me how the week was just by the colors. But that allows me to then like yourself, however you want to use it for me, I use it for how stress the my my leaning towards burnout. That was something that I suffered for years ago and I don’t ever want go down that road again. So, yeah, I mean, I like the reading. It’s something you mentioned those common things like one of those trends with those people that you did like to work with, or, you know, as far as team members or customers, right, right. It’s really to identify those trends. Was there any other sort of exercises or methods or strategies that you can think of to work through or that you’ve researched? Maybe to try to figure out how to attract more customers to your products?

Nathan Barry 26:33
Yeah, well, I mean, the first thing like we’ve touched on is to find the ideal customers and focus on that side of it, because you don’t actually want more customers, right? You want more of those ideal customers, and the more you narrow it down, and the more specific you are, the better. I’ll tend to map customers, like take those ideal customers and then draw a Venn diagrams. There’s a post I did years ago with different business models, who was in business models. It was like all of my projects. Because I got to the point where I’m trying to learn how to make money. And so I’m trying all these different things. And I’ve got iPhone apps, I’ve got ebooks, I’ve got WordPress plugins, WordPress theme, either just like all these different things that are out there. And some make no money, some are making a couple hundred bucks a month, and we’re making a few thousand a month, all that kind of thing. And I put it in a Venn diagram, or maybe it’s a scatter plot. I don’t know what it turned it into supposed to be a Venn diagram at the start. And it was like, the idea is, if I put time into marketing this one thing, how does it play over to this next? Right? So like, an example would be, if I put time into marketing, my book, the app design Handbook, how much benefit does it provide to my other book designing web applications? Quite a bit because the audience is decently overlap. But I put effort into those two things. How much effort is or how much value does it provide to marketing? My iPhone app used by speech language pathologist that I was actually making decent amount of money from very little money Like, I can use it in a case study, and someone’s going to be like, Oh, my aunt is a speech language pathologist, and but we’re really reaching there. So in that, in that by diagram of the post, like there’s a few things that are, like bubbled over here and lumped together, and then way off on the side, right? There’s another one that instead when I’m looking like, Okay, I’m approaching burnout, I don’t have enough energy to put in all these things. I’m making money from everything, I gotta get rid of something, what do I do? And then by mapping it out that way, you look and it’s like, well, it’s super obvious, but i do i go sell off this iPhone app and be done with it. Because even though it’s making money, it’s now about the quality of the dollar, rather than other things. And so if you’re looking at acquiring customers, then you want to look Am I doing enough focus enough way that every customer that I acquire if I do it this way, will it make acquiring the next customer easier? So I’m a huge fan of Jim Collins and the book Good to Great, but especially his little add on to it, which is called I always want to the final Manifesto, but I think it’s actually turning the flywheel. And for anyone listening who doesn’t know what a flywheel is, it’s like the example that I give. Because it’s my personal experience the flywheel is years ago, I was putting in a well in situ, which is the landlocked country inside of South Africa. And we were there with friends used to live there, and we’re helping out this orphanage. And so we’ve the drilling companies drilled like 200 feet down the head water for all the pipes and everything. And they leave and it’s up to us to install the pump handle and everything. So instead of like a pump handle that you raise up and down, you know, we put this big four foot across a metal wheel on top of it. And like, it’s super hard to turn like my friend and I run into his hand on his side and we’re pushing we get going like bracing our feet and then as the momentum gets going, the wheel turns instead of a pump handle, like that wheel is working it and bring water to the surface. And it gets to the point where you know we can spend this thing like I can stand there one hand, no effort. Just like spin this thing as the moment, momentum continues. So Colin’s point in Good to Great is basically like the best companies find that flywheel. So it’s not about how do I get one customer? How do I increase revenue? Or chasing all these different things? It’s what system can I create where each step moves around the flywheel, and it’s going to result in more customers like this more revenue. Right? So it’s not about find this customer than the next customer than the next customer. It’s right, these kind of blog posts, which attract this customer, what you know, and then I do an incredible job on their project. We get these results that I write a case study, and then I promote that case study on my blog, which attracts these kind of customers, and they do an incredible job and then I read a case study, right? And so you you’re doing the same activities over and over again, rather than, you know, spinning your wheels are turning all these different directions. And so for us with ConvertKit, you know, in the early days, I was willing to like migrate customers is over and is a full switch for them for free and all that, because I knew that getting that one customer. You know, it’s super hard and ton of work but it make getting the next customer the tiniest bit easier. And I could work that same system in that flywheel. I just didn’t have the terminology because I hadn’t read Good to Great.

Jason Resnick 31:15
Yeah, like that. Yeah, I mean, that’s for me, it’s always doubling down on what works, right? Like, right? centrally the same theory there. It’s, you know, how do you leverage what you’ve done to get that next one, because that next one is the same as the first. And so if you just keep going and double down on what works rather than doing this shotgun approach of trying to figure out all these different things, which I’m at fault that if I do these 30 day, month long marketing things, and then I tried them and most of them fail, but every now and then something works. So I like that. I like that a lot. So yeah, I definitely want to be mindful of your time here. I know you’ve had a long day back to back me meetings and things of that nature. So, before I let you go, I mean, what’s up next for the next 612 months? I know, you know, before we jumped on the recording here, you said, I’m working all day long, but said anything special going on in the next six to eight months?

Nathan Barry 32:17
Yeah. You know, on the product side, we’re going all in on our landing pages and building that in guy have this idea of we want convert it to be the easiest way to launch your next creative project. And so, this year, we’ve put a ton of effort into our landing pages and making it so you can, you know, get that ebook signed up for the new podcast or whatever going really, really quickly. So we’re gonna do a lot to make that more accessible and, and push from there. I you know, and then on the personal side, like my wife and I have this little four and a half acre mini Hobby Farm and so we do all kinds of projects on that. So, yeah, I’m building a tiny house right now. So I’m gonna be working on that. I’m gonna put it in the backyard and it’s going to be My office there’s a lot of fun, cool, new task going on. But honestly, the defining thing in the next six months is we’re having another kid, December and So congrats can cry. It’s going to be pretty much everything.

Jason Resnick 33:12
Yeah, I have a five month old. So I know. I know. Yeah. That’s why I didn’t go to the conference because it was lined up. I was like, yeah, this end of April. That’s the beginning of June. That’s not gonna go over well with the life so.

Unknown Speaker 33:27
Yeah, for sure. Right. Yeah.

Jason Resnick 33:28
Congrats. That’s awesome. Do you know what you’re having? Are you having a third boy?

Unknown Speaker 33:33
She’s lots of boys.

Jason Resnick 33:35
I’ve got two boys now. So. So, hey, we get we got a basketball team, right? That’s right.

Unknown Speaker 33:42
Exactly.

Jason Resnick 33:42
Awesome. Well, congrats on that. And I know that that’s going to be a handful of time and a lot of sleepless nights. So kudos to you and your family on that. Thanks. Thanks for being here. Nathan. Where can where can folks reach out and say thanks?

Nathan Barry 33:58
Yeah, so I’m gonna Twitter just at Nathan Barry, all my writings at nathanbarry.com and then my email is just Nathan a convert it. Someone said on Twitter like I’m reaching over Twitter because I can’t find your email address and I’m like, I don’t hide it. My first name at my company calm and so anyway happy to have you to talk to people. I’m pretty good at responding to everything that I get. So I would love to talk and and feel free to reach out.

Jason Resnick 34:24
Awesome. Thank you. And thank you for your time today again, Nathan. This is an absolute pleasure.

Nathan Barry 34:31
Yeah, thanks.

Jason Resnick 34:32
And for everyone listening Till next time, it’s your time to live in the feast.

If you enjoyed today’s episode, I could speak for both Nathan and myself by saying that we’d love to hear the one takeaway that you got from this episode. Super simple in the podcast app of your choice, presumably the one that you’re listening to right now, drop in a comment or review, or go ahead and share it in a tweet and tag me at Ray’s and I’ll be happy to pass that along to Nathan. Also hit that subscribe button so that you’ll be the first to listen in next week when we’ll be back with Krista Ray. Krista is a developer and podcasting and she collaborates with designers to build websites and support their clients goals, while allowing the designers to spend more time doing what they do. And that’s design. Until then, your time to live in the feast.