Today's co-host is Mor Cohen. Mor is a branding and web designer and teaches people how to build better client relationships. Mor is the founder of FlixFrame, a web design agency for small businesses and entrepreneurs.
Mor started out as a graphic designer during the "IPO Golden Era", so to speak, and did a lot of pitch decks for clients who were trying to raise venture capital. Early on in her career, she realized that her value didn't come from the number of pages or slides she designed, but in her ability to solve a problem for her clients.
These early insights allowed her to avoid the trap of pricing her services by quantity, and base it instead on the value she was delivering. But that wasn't the only pricing trap she ran into. Mor found herself in a rut early on because of "how" she talked about pricing. By delaying the budget conversation, she would end up wasting a lot of time in meetings and developing proposals, only to have clients walk away when they couldn't afford her prices. That realization pushed her to learn more about her clients upfront, and talk about pricing before moving forward.
Mor firmly believes that we're not just designers or developers or digital marketers, we have to understand business, marketing, social media, SEO, etc. You can't just put yourself in a corner as one thing and ignore the rest. It doesn't work like that.
This episode goes deep on how and why you should talk to your clients about pricing. We also get into how confidence plays a critical role in getting clients to trust you and pay your rates.
[Tweet "'This is not about the tools. This is about the whole answer we are giving people.' @FlixFrame"]
In this episode Mor talked about:
- The "aha" moment that allowed her to pivot to where she is today.
- The reason and the why around pricing something that may not take a lot of time to complete.
- How clients perceive your pricing and pitfalls to avoid.
- Clients don't care about the tools, tech, or the education. They want a solution. Show them that you can provide that solution and you will be in business.
- Not addressing the issue of money (the budget for the project) just wastes everyone's time.
- Pricing has nothing to do with how much time something requires, but the value it delivers and the years of experience wrapped up in that task.
- Clients are more willing to pay your price when you show that you have the confidence to complete the task and have expertise in the field. As soon as you start to lose confidence, your client will begin to micromanage and question your pricing.
Important Mentions in this Episode
Mor Cohen 0:00
This is not about the tools. This is about the whole answer that we are getting people. clients don’t really care what plugins you have on your site. All they need to know is where they want to go. What problems do they have on their end with their own clients that I can help them solve?
Jason Resnick 0:30
Welcome to Episode 11 of season six of live in the feast. I’m Jason aka rezzz helping you grow your business by having a conversation with someone who’s been there had success and built the business designed around the life that they want to live. That’s live in the feast. If this is your first time listening, where have you been? I want you to go ahead and hit that subscribe button so that you get notified every time a new episode drops live in the
Feast is in your podcast app of choice. And if it’s not, let me know and I’ll get there. If you’ve heard the show before, leave us a review on iTunes or drop us a comment in breaker or cast box. 10 days co host is Mor Cohen. Mor is the founder and creator of flicks frame. Mor is a branding and web designer with over 20 years of experience. She’s now focused on educating web developers and digital marketers on how to master design so that they can charge more for their products or services more and I have been in various online communities over the years for quite some time. And she and I advocate much of the same thing when it comes down to helping developers designers and others on building sustainable businesses. I’m excited to share this conversation with you because Mor is a designer and much like that have another guest this
Season Chris Do on episode three, she teaches the art of building client relationships so that you could charge for the end result of the solution to your clients, not the pixels or code that you put on the screen. This episode we dive into instead of educating your clients, because ultimately they don’t care anyway, talk to them about how the end result of what it is that you will be doing for them helps them and their customers. We’re also going to talk about how talking about budget reduces wasting time for you and your leads and how confidence plays a critical role in your pricing. Just in case you are the type to not finish a podcast, you might be interested to stick around for a little while just until the end. Just saying. I think you’re going to love this conversation between more and myself. So now let me Shut up and let’s dive in.
Hey Feasters is welcome to another episode of live in the feast. I am super excited to be talking with Mor Cohen. Welcome Mor.
Mor Cohen 3:17
Hi, thank you for having me.
Jason Resnick 3:19
Yeah, thanks for being here. It’s funny we, before we jumped on it, it’s funny how you, like, have these conversations with people and you cross paths in groups and forums and all sorts of communities online and all text based and then you don’t get that one on one conversation. Like, you know, hey, let’s pick up the phone and chat until until the podcast, right. So I’m super excited to finally connect at that at this level.
Because, you know, we’ve been both been doing this for quite some time. And that’s why we are out there helping other people, right?
Mor Cohen 3:55
Yes, absolutely. And I agree with you. There’s nothing like a one on one conversation? Absolutely.
Jason Resnick 4:01
Absolutely. So I always like to ask this question, because I think oftentimes sums everything up nicely. Because we do these things like sharing our experience sharing our stories, trying to help you know what a lot of people say, our competitors, right design other designers and developers, whereas I always look at it. Everybody’s like a colleague, right. So if I can help somebody get over a hurdle, I like to do that. And you as well, I mean, I see the how you contribute to so many awesome communities out there, and sharing your wealth of experience and your knowledge, not just what you do on your website for your courses, and memberships and things of that nature, but also, you know, just in the community, right? So I always like to ask this question is, what is your defining moment in life so far?
Mor Cohen 4:58
I think we, there are two major things, I think, the first time that I discovered that, helping a client and, you know, charging them and, you know, getting paid for my work is really not about the number of pages that you know, I built for them, or the one logo or, you know, anything in particular, it’s about my experience and expertise. And it’s about my ability to solve a problem that they have. And not all problems are the same. each client have different problems where they require different solutions. And when I discovered kind of early on that this is where my worth is, I think it just eliminated this whole phase that I see other people going through where they Christ did work, according to too, you know, the hours that it takes them to build a website, or the number of pages or the this or that functionality, when really, it should be about the end result.
Jason Resnick 6:12
So you said you found this early on in your career? How early was that?
Mor Cohen 6:18
I’m fairly early. I started as a graphic designer before there were not not really before there was internet, but right at the beginning. And I did a lot of you know, it was the IPO, golden era. And I did a lot of perspectives and a lot of PowerPoints and a lot of stuff that helped people get money from venture capitalists. And I figured out really early on that this is not about the number of slides in the presentation, or the number of pages or the images in the perspective that this is about, you know, what are they going to get from me that will help them get where they want to go? So that was the shift to really early on.
Jason Resnick 7:08
So was that something that just occurred to you? Or was it enough? Like, did you read something? I mean, because I feel like a lot of people struggle with this. Like, they don’t have that aha moment, right until their, they either fall down over themselves or somebody basically bludgeons them,
Mor Cohen 7:27
right? Most people do. And you know, you’ve mentioned, you know, me helping in communities. This is one of the things I talk about a lot that this this is not about the tools. This is not about the number of pages or the fonts, or this is about the whole answer that we are giving people. And I think it did occur to me, I’m naturally, I think one day, I just kind of sat down and said, Well, we didn’t minute doesn’t really matter if the presentation has 20 slides or 50 slides. What information are, am I helping my client convey in a way that will help them get to where they want to go?
Jason Resnick 8:16
That’s awesome. So once you realize that and which kind of what got over the hump, if you will? How has that changed? Essentially, the communication level in which you have with both leads and clients?
Mor Cohen 8:29
I think that when you come from a place of providing solution and not necessarily educating clients, because clients don’t really care if you use element or Beaver Builder, if you are, you know what plugins you have on your site, they don’t care. All they need to know is where they want to go, What problems do they have there and with their own clients that I can help them solve? And if I, you know, approach everything from that point of view, it makes it easier for everyone. Yeah, no, I haven’t Well said, Absolutely. I mean, I think a lot of times, I mean, and it’s something that I,
Jason Resnick 9:17
I feel like I do, I do some level of education, but I always try to come with that education to at least set the tone of what the solution is going to be for their problem. And I think that a lot of people struggle with it. And I’m curious on your experience on this, but like, what I find is, and I struggled with it with this, as well as still being able to say, Okay, I know that this is worth $10,000, even if it’s just for argument’s sake, it’s three lines of code. I know that this is going to affect your business in this way. How do you approach it to a client to essentially say, hey, look, I’m going to charge you $5,000 for this thing, that’s only going to take me an hour’s worth of work?
Mor Cohen 10:07
Oh, well, it’s gonna take me an hour, because I’ve spent 20 years learning how to do it in an hour. Perfect. Yeah. So it has nothing to do with how much time I spend. It has everything to do with my experience and my expertise. And honestly, I don’t want to sound kind of harsh, but clients that focus on, you know, how much they’re spending. And if they can get the same thing from someone else. First of all, I don’t think that they can get the same thing from someone else, because that person will not be me. So I know, it sounds kind of you know that.
Jason Resnick 10:49
That’s awesome. I love
Mor Cohen 10:50
that it’s true. So I’m sure they can get some sort of solution someplace else, and maybe it will be cheaper, but is it going to be the best solution that they need that only I can provide for them? So, you know, I don’t audition for projects. I mostly I get people approached me unless there’s something that I feel like I really, really, really want to do. And then I go after it, you know, some special project, but I get people approached me and I expect them to do their due diligence and know who I am and what I’m doing and what I’m capable of doing. So I have very little discussions about pricing, to be honest.
Jason Resnick 11:37
All right, let’s just jump on that right there. Okay, so do you convey your prices right up front, right, on your website before?
Mor Cohen 11:44
Yeah, the question of budget comes up fairly early. But only after I figure, you know, I figure out if I’m interested in the project, and if the client and I kind of jive and we speak the same language in I do ask about budget, because I think not asking about budget is really we’re not helping the client by not talking about money. We’re wasting their time, not only we wasting our own time, but we are wasting their time and their energy. And if they don’t have the budget that we feel is needed to get their project done the right way, then, you know, we wish them well. And we thank them for you know, approaching us. But there’s no reason for us to say, Well, in that case, let me try to less because the solution will still be the same that we you know, we offered at first. So I guess I do come into the question of budget right away?
Jason Resnick 12:47
Yeah, what do you say to the young developer or the young designer that says, I don’t want to put my pricing on my website or talk about budget, because I feel in that it pigeonholes me,
Mor Cohen 12:59
you know, you’d don’t maybe you don’t need to put like a precise amount, but you definitely need to put in a range. Because double eliminate so much time wasting on both, you know, the designer or developer part and also from the client’s perspective, because they wouldn’t approach you if they know in advance that there’s no way that they can afford your services. You know, so you do want to get them engaged in a conversation as soon as possible. But you definitely it’s kind of a boundary thing. Where you put that in, but you still keep the door open? Yeah,
Jason Resnick 13:39
yeah. I mean, that’s pretty much what I’ve done. From my experiences. I’ve put my pricing on my website, not on my website, put ballpark figures, things of that nature, like starting at X dollars. And just to kind of see what the reaction is, and and each and every single time, because I’m in that I can only speak from my own experience. And maybe maybe you can add to this too, if you tried this sort of thing is, is each and every time that I waiver, or I guess, get more vague about my pricing, it’s like the floodgates open up for bad leads. Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s funny, it’s like, if I put in a specific price, a hard line price, then Okay, good leads are coming through. If I put a ballpark figure in there, it’s like, okay, it’s a mixture of bad and good. And then if I put just starting at something, it just like, all of a sudden, it’s just like, opened up a floodgate.
Mor Cohen 14:40
Right. But you know, it depends on what stage of the career this person is, if they’re just starting out, you know, obviously, they are eager to get experience and maybe, you know, don’t think that they can charge as much as they should. That’s okay, then you put a range and then you filter out, you know, the clients and that way, but definitely, when you get to a point where you don’t have to take it just every project, then you definitely need to be a lot more clear and enlightened, a lot more decisive, about your pricing.
Jason Resnick 15:23
What I love about what more is saying here about prices and displaying them on your website, is because well, I didn’t do that in the beginning. And I found myself stuck in this rut that what was made because I was wasting time with tire kickers who would pick my brain for hours on end on a call, and then have me go ahead and build out this proposal, right this long proposal, only for them not to buy in the end, they had no intentions and doing so they just wanted to pick my brain more also shared how important it is to stand by your pricing. I lowered my prices at times in the beginning because I needed work. I wasn’t closing it. So and needed work. How did I close that work by lowering my prices, see how all of this stuff is connected. By doing so I found myself working with people who just looked at me as a pair of hands on a keyboard and didn’t respect the value of the work that I was providing for them. Pricing and how you stand by them is such a critical component to a sustainable and profitable business. So important that it’s what feast is all about. Inside a feast, you’ll have access to everything you need to be able to build your ideal client, not based around demographics, but based on you your personality, your skills, and the potential market that awaits you as the go to person. If you want worksheets and exercises, and the ability to create that ideal client, so that then you can become the go to resource and charge what you’re worth, head on over to feast academy.com. Today, as a member, you’ll get the processes and templates to not only figure out your ideal client and the services that you can provide to them, you’ll also learn how to figure out the price to put on those services. That makes it a complete no brainer for the lead to sign up with you. This is why I want to invite you to check out feast by using the code confidence you can get your first month for only $20 feast is the community and resource hub for developers and designers ready to get off that project searching hamster wheel and actually run the business that they set out to build feast helps position you in the market with what you do, who you help, and helps you build the processes and systems for client management, sales, marketing, delivery, and of course pricing. Your business isn’t the same as everyone else’s, I get that. So when you become a member of feast, you get personalized guidance for myself. It is essential for me to meet you where you are, and make sure that you are getting the exact tools so that you don’t get lost in the shuffle. The moment you sign up, we’re going to have a chat. Yes, we are. So that I can create a custom syllabus of resources inside a feast to meet you where you are. If you want to stop chasing down the next project all the time, so that you can start living your life, go to feast Academy calm and use the code confidence at checkout. And your first month is just $20.
So we had Vito Pele, on previous episode, same season. And he shared that it was all a mindset for him. Like where he felt like he was providing a certain value. And this is what I want to charge for that value. Absolutely. And this is when he was starting out even like, and he was helping his team members also kind of sauce through this a little bit. And he shared a story where he told his his friend to say, yeah, charge $300 for that, or $3,000 for I think it was and his friend did it wind up getting a job. And then he, his friend came back to him and said, Well, why did you charge $3,000? for it, he goes, I don’t know, I just threw a number out, you believe that it was worth dollars. And the client believe that as well. So I love that story. Because it’s like even starting out. And yes, it’s difficult. Like if you are just starting or you’re transitioning from full time into your own business, starting out pricing you like a What do they charge per hour for the stuff that I do on a network and all these other sites. But I would encourage you to take a step back while you have to kind of gauge the market a little bit. But take a step back and and try to believe in it, like throw the number and see if it sticks to the wall, right? And keep doing that. And see what happens if you start getting pushback where you’re not closing deals because you’re too high. Okay, then maybe take a step back, right. And I’ve heard all other people do a little bit of this sort of pricing strategy when starting out as well. Because, you know, sometimes you do have to kind of just while there’s an education there or an educated guess at what somebody might pay for this, hey, if I want to jump from $2,000 websites to $5,000 websites, and then 5000, to 10,000. And it’s really just my experience and time that I’ve put into my learning to do this, sometimes you just have to say, I’m going to charge this on the next leap can be the same work. But the next lead is getting this charge. What sort of pricing strategies have you implored over the course of your career that that may be a little out of the box, if you will,
Mor Cohen 21:19
I think that being able to price, my work went hand in hand with my confidence. And what I mean by that is that if I am absolutely confident that I can provide the best solution out there, the way I will convey my pricing or write my proposal, or have a conversation with a prospective client comes from a place of confidence. And I think it’s really a huge thing in our interaction with clients, because clients start micromanaging, and they start questioning and the start, you know, being suspicious of our ability, when we are not confident in what we do, it kind of projects on to them. So if you, you know, if if you are someone who has confidence in what you do you know what you’re doing, you know how to do it. And this shines through your interaction. And when you get there, then there is very little discussion about pricing. Interesting, it’s an inner dialogue that we have with ourselves, you know, you don’t have a course out. And the reason I created it is because I used to do a lot of white label work for agencies, and you know, digital marketers, and most of the conversations that I would have with them, revolved around them, not knowing what they were doing as far as the design process, and it was almost Welcome to them. And they felt inexperienced, and they felt like they don’t know how to get started each and every project and it kind of, you know, trickle down to their level of confidence and them feeling secure in their ability to do and deliver a solution. So my whole thing about why I like to help people and my course and you know, my participation in forums and groups is about telling people, they can get a lot more confident and secure in what they do. And when they do that. It’s magic, how they’re able to charge a lot more and book more work. This, it’s like a switch flex one day, right?
Jason Resnick 23:48
Yeah, I mean, and I think that that’s interesting that you said that because it’s it’s instilling that confidence on the client, that you know what you’re doing, and the client then feels comfortable to say, okay, there’s a process here, there’s an expertise here, there’s a knowledge base here, and they know what they’re doing, right? Even if you just, you know, take a step back in your own buying habits, do you listen to that? You know, how do you feel when you go into a place where it’s a little sketchy? You know, maybe you’re buying a TV and you know, you’re in New York City, and you go into one of those shrink wrap or Us page in our stores? And like, why is this TV like? I mean, it’s a little sketchy, so you’re not really sure if it’s Samsung or Samsung, right. And so having that confidence to know exactly your process. And what you do for your clients is I think imperative. And I want to first call out design class is the name of the course, and more was gracious enough to if you use the code rez 20, at checkout, you can get 20% off. So thank you for that. My pleasure.
I appreciate that. And and I know that the listeners appreciate that as well. So one of the things that you mentioned, and I think that this is this is so great, because your class talks about, it’s a design focused course, right for marketers, and developers and those people that aren’t necessarily of the design background. But you essentially call out saying that through your transformation of this course, you’re going to be able to charge more, is part of that. instilling that confidence in them or giving them the process?
Mor Cohen 25:34
Absolutely, um, I do have a lot of developers and digital marketers, but surprisingly enough, it was surprising to me, too, that I also have many students who are experienced designers, but need don’t have the processes in place. So, you know, designers can create what they create. But they come back to me and say, Well, no, I understand why. And for developers, they completely lack any confidence in their ability to do any design. And they said, Well, you know, I’m a developer, I only care about functionality. And, you know, everything else is secondary. And I know you’re a developer too. So I’m gonna say this.
Jason Resnick 26:21
Right? I can.
Mor Cohen 26:23
Being able to excel in providing functionality is amazing, you know, as someone who can do some CSS, but I cannot comprehend, you know, PHP or anything, even, you know, more complex than that. If you don’t provide the framework for this functionality to be used, then, you know, what are we really doing here, and I’m not saying that one is more important than the other, but the do go, you know, design and development do go hand in hand. And what I mean is that if you if we don’t guide the visitor to a site through the story that we’re telling, if we’re not telling them, Okay, at this point, you need to click this button, because you need to book a call or to buy a product or to download a lead magnet, or whatever it is that we want them to do. If we don’t guide them through that process, then they don’t even get to experience the wonderful functionality that you built at the back end. That’s true, because they don’t
know to click the button. Absolutely.
And if you don’t design the site in a way that kind of walks, people through the process of the information that you want to convey to them, you know, then you know, we’re kind of missing the whole point of the website. It’s not just there to take up pixels. There is a reason why we build a website. And you know, it’s different with each project that we do, but there’s usually a reason for it. And we and whatever we do design and functionality. It’s kind of this is the reason why we do this.
Jason Resnick 28:10
Yeah, I mean, to your point. I mean, there’s like, as a developer, I know what looks good. I don’t know how to get it there. Right, exactly. And for me, you know, much like yourself, I mean, I started in the mid to late 90s, my career, and I went through that startup com explosion, implosion, and all I knew was this sort of, I don’t want to say divide, but I’m going to say the divide between developers and designers, and there was always this kind of push and pull kind of thing happening, where it was like, where do we spend the money? Right? Do we spend it on the functionality, we spend it on design? And what’s nice about seeing and reflecting back on it over the past 20 years or so? I feel like Finally, there’s like a marriage, like there’s an understanding that you need both. If you want to one, charge better prices, give your clients the best solution possible. You have to figure out a way in which to marry the two, you can’t just do great design work without the great development behind it. You’re just going to fall flat. And it’s going to be a half half assed project, right? Yes. So I love what you’re saying there. Because yes, I mean, for a long time, I was like, I’m just developer, I make things click, however you want it whatever color you want it wherever you want it on the page. That’s not my job, right. But while it may not be my job, it’s still I still have to come to the client, because it goes back to what you were saying before is the client doesn’t care how you get there, they just want you to get there. Exactly. And so you have to come together with all of those, all of those things together. Okay, I have to ask inside the description that you had for the habit for the class, you have access to my toolbox, my secret toolbox, if you will, okay, just what’s one thing inside that toolbox? Well,
Mor Cohen 30:08
you know, people who are not, you know, designers usually don’t have access to Photoshop or Illustrator, or you know, any of the other tools that designers have and take kind of for granted. So I have several tools that I do use on a daily basis, to come up with colors to understand to make sure that I am meeting the clients expectations by understanding their brand. And I have to tell you, the first thing that I teach and the first thing that I do with each and every project, even after all these years before I install WordPress before there’s anything done, as far as the actual work is I dive really deep into understanding the client understanding their brand, and who they’re talking to who their clients are, what is the message that they are trying to convey? Because if we don’t understand that, you know, I know for myself, if I don’t really dive as deep as possible into it, I don’t know where to start the design, you know, really having the knowledge is so super important for the whole process. So before, you know, I touch my mouse, before I do anything, I really dive deep. And please, no one do this deep diving without charging. So this is this is a built in it’s it’s it’s a mandatory part of the project. It’s not, you know, can we have a discovery phase? No, the discovery phase is a part of the project. Because if I don’t have that don’t know how to build you the solution? If I don’t understand the problem?
Jason Resnick 32:04
Yeah, no, absolutely.
Mor Cohen 32:06
So, for example, I do share with my students a very extensive intake form that I use for my own clients. And I talked about this a lot, how to use it, and how to extract the information that we need, and convert the words into design, essentially. So you know, this is this is really the foundation, but you know, I have a ton of resources that I share, as far as, you know, the spacing of elements on the page. How do you choose and pair fonts? You know, how do you know what goes with what their tools available online, free, that you people can use if they know how to use them, and if they know how to implement the information that they can gather. And you know, that’s that’s a huge part of what I teach is that the information is there, you just need to know the process, you know, the A to Z, how to implement it in to your workflow. Awesome.
Jason Resnick 33:13
Well, so many people struggle with that. And I’m so glad that you mentioned charging for that discovery phase. Oh, yeah. I mean, I fell victim to this too early on, too, is like, instead of treating that as a paid engagement, you put that as a part of your sales process. And you’re spending hours and hours on the phone with them diving deep into their, you know, business come up with a proposal, and then nothing happens. Exactly. They just gave it all of your experience and knowledge, essentially for free.
Mor Cohen 33:44
Exactly. And again, people say well, I don’t know how long the discovery is going to last. I don’t know how to charge for it. So again, you don’t charge for how long? The How long is irrelevant. Here, you charge for your ability need to understand what the client is telling you. Awesome. So it could take two hours, it could take two days or a week, it doesn’t matter, you charge for your ability to kind of decipher their words and translate it into a solution that they need. I like that.
Jason Resnick 34:16
And listener if you want in on this design class that I Oh, I’ll link everything up in the show notes. You can use rez that’s with three Z’s 20 at checkout for 20% off. But if you write a review on the show, and screenshot that, and send it to me and mentioned more, for the first two people that do that, I’m going to buy you your access to the course. Wow. So there’s the opportunity. So you get to get Moore’s Moore’s knowledge on my
Mor Cohen 34:50
you know, it’s, it’s, I come to the whole teaching thing from a lot of compassion, because I understand, you know, the bewilderment and the deer in the headlight look, that a lot of developers or digital marketers get when they book a project, and they sit in front of the computer, and they don’t know where to start. And the spent so much unnecessary time and effort and anxiety over this and the second guests, every decision that they make, well, maybe not that far, maybe this font, maybe not that color, that the other color, and you know, how do we know that this works. And if you have, even if you have, not every project, have, you know, enough budget to hire a designer. And even if you do hire a designer, or you have one on your team, if you don’t have the tools to judge the work that they’re doing for you, you don’t know what they’re producing. So you can count on what they’re telling you. But do I know, you know, for a fact what it is that they’re telling you to do. So it goes really deep. And when you as a an agency owner or a freelancer, if you don’t, if again, it goes to confidence, if you’re not confident that what you are getting from your teams? Or can yourself, how can you be confident conveying it to the client? Right? So you know, I do understand and people, you know, it’s not their fault, because no one ever showed them how to do things right away.
Jason Resnick 36:35
I know. And that’s why that’s why I like I created feast, right? And it sounds like very similar why you created design classes that when we were first starting out there was nobody out there that would teaches you things unless we went to like some night class at university on business, I there wasn’t related to design, graphic design, or web development or anything of that nature was like, you can, I had to, we had to essentially sift through the weeds to try to figure this stuff out ourselves. And, you know, that’s why that’s why I was super excited to talk with you today. Because, you know, like, to come across in a way where you know, like, it’s a genuine way in which you know, you come to the community and contribute. Right. And so, you know, you could see that, while there’s plenty of gurus out there on like, Instagram with their pictures of on their yacht, and their four walls Wally’s and, you know, they say, hey, we’ll get you a million dollars by working only three hours this week and think, like, I’m like, it doesn’t work like that. Now, I don’t put the work in and and for me, and you know, it sounds like from you, as well, like, I know that it comes from a place of good inside you tonight say, hey, I want to be able to help you get to where you want go? Because I know we want to go yes. And in you didn’t start this business, because you wanted more headaches? And why the work more you want it, you know, the
Mor Cohen 38:09
sleepless nights? Yes.
Jason Resnick 38:12
We’ve all been there. So I’m very grateful that you shared that with us today.
Mor Cohen 38:17
You know, and I didn’t wake up one morning and say, Well, I’m just going to create a course I just found myself answering the same questions over and over. And then I said, Actually, I was encouraged to just put it all in a course. And at first I’m like, you know, why would someone want to learn from me, because I didn’t really understand the value of it. But I get so many emails and private messages and, you know, texts from people, and they’re like, you know, this, what you teach me is changing how I work, and it’s changing my business. And I’m proud of the sites that I’m building now. And I feel like I can charge more. And, you know, I have one of my students who was completely embarrassed presenting any work. And he’s like, whenever someone asked to see my portfolio, I stopped the conversation. So I don’t book any clients because I’m ashamed. And he came back to me, I think it was like a month ago and actually posted on Facebook and said, You know, I just managed to book a project with a million dollar company. And it’s because I’m confident in what I can offer. Because, you know, we’re not just designers or developers or digital marketers, or we are everything, we need to understand business. And we need to understand marketing, we need to understand social media. And we need to understand web design and web development and, you know, SEO, it’s all kind of, you know, a thing that comes together. So we can’t really put ourselves in the corner and put blinders on and say, I don’t need to know design. I’m just a developer. I don’t need to know, SEO. I’m just a designer. It doesn’t work like that.
Jason Resnick 40:09
Yeah. And it’s funny. That’s the mentality that I had when I worked full time.
Mor Cohen 40:14
Yes. Which that’s easy to when you work full time,
Jason Resnick 40:17
right? Because there’s other people on Team Sal, that’s, that’s Ed’s work. He’s a graphic designer, I don’t think what that stuff. But it’s funny, because even if that isn’t what you do, right, like, I’m a developer, and that’s, that’s what I do. That’s the services that I offer to clients is development. But I know enough about design and know enough about marketing, obviously, part of my services, email marketing. So I obviously have a depth of knowledge there as well. But like, marketing in general, between paid ads, and media ads, and those sort of things. And I know who to talk to, to bring what I don’t know, to the conversation if it’s needed, right. And so while your services, you really want to hone in on providing good services, and really, you know, hundred and 10% on that side, you do you need to know all of the other pieces of the game, because it’s that whole solution that you are bringing to your client in the end anyway. And you can just have these conversations. And, you know, I get asked all the time, like, should I be doing Facebook ads? Or should I be doing AdWords? And maybe, I don’t know why, like, let’s have this conversation a little bit and, and dive a little bit into it, and then come to the conversation and say, Okay, if this is what we’re going to do, how does that affect the current work that we’re working on? Right, right. And and does it shift the timeline? Does it shift priorities? Does it shift the budget, right, and you have to come to the table with that, because, one, they’re not expecting you to do everything for the same price?
Mor Cohen 41:56
Jason Resnick 41:58
Right? Right. But for two is, if you don’t say anything about it, they’re not going to say anything, either.
Mor Cohen 42:05
They don’t know, they really don’t know. But that’s why the whole discovery phase is so important. Because if you don’t understand, you know, what the end result should be, you can bring solutions, right? And you can say, Well, you know, in order to reach this specific target audience, we need to put in Facebook ads, or we need to go to Instagram or Pinterest, or we need to do you know, this or that, you know, email marketing funnels? If you don’t understand that, how can you offer it, but you know, but also, if you don’t understand how to do this piece of the puzzle, because it’s all a puzzle that has to fit together. If you don’t understand the design, if you don’t understand the branding, if you don’t understand how everything kind of, you know, it’s a symphony coming together, if you don’t understand how each part plays into the whole picture, you can’t really see the whole picture for the client. And they definitely can’t, because it’s not their expertise, you know, they ran a dry cleaning, they don’t understand fresh, right?
Jason Resnick 43:14
Exactly. So clean your suit, but they’re not going to put them
Mor Cohen 43:20
exactly, but you do ask me how to dry clean a suit, I don’t know. But that’s why I go to them. So it’s the same, it’s the same thing. And design is such an important part of each and every aspect of what we do for client, you know, we as consumer, are really spoiled, we are used to seeing things that are so well designed that they kind of compel us to go through the process of checking them out. Just as much as when things are not designed, right, it turns us off, we move somewhere else, we’re not going to stay somewhere on a site, for example, or a social media channel, that does not help us navigate through the information easily and quickly. It has to be very simple. If we have to spend time understanding what you’re trying to say, we don’t have time for this, we don’t have patience for this, we’re going to go somewhere else, right. So it’s kind of a whole, you know, all the pieces have to fit together. And I think if you understand the design part, maybe you won’t be the one, you know, continuously picking up the colors, but you understand the process. So you can supervise it. And when your team knows, you know, this is what how we start. And this is the end result. And you know, there’s a process and there are tools that we have to go through for each phase of the project, then you as you know, the team leader, or you know, the agency, owner, you can go and live your life and you you can travel and you can be with your family. And you can go after more business, you know, whatever it is that you want, because you don’t need to babysit each and every project, right?
Jason Resnick 45:09
Yeah, no, that’s, that’s, that’s the life.
Mor Cohen 45:13
Because you know, it can help you grow your personal life or grow your business or have a lot more peace of mind and sanity, which you and I know are easy to lose in this business. But it’s all comes down to do I know what is the next step? But am I confident?
Jason Resnick 45:33
Yes. And share that share your process?
Mor Cohen 45:36
Absolutely. You know, I have quite a few people who are really experienced agency owners who’ve been doing this for years and years and years, 1015 years. And they’re in my course. And they come back to me and they said for the first time, I actually have everything outlined, where I can actually turn my back and know that everything is going to be done the right way. And if one of the team members leave and another one steps in, you know, they know where to continue. Because it’s very clear with the person before I left off. Absolutely. That’s awesome. So, you know, think of all the money that you save all the time, all the frustrations. I think it’s it’s, again, we kind of underestimate the importance of really understanding and having a process in place. For everything that we do. Yeah. And like you said, at the top, it’s that confidence. Absolutely. Did you know that you’re coming to the table with because you’re confident that the work is going to get done in the proper way it needs to get done? Yes. And that’s going to rub off on your leads and your clients absolutely,
Jason Resnick 46:47
ultimately be able to charge what you want.
Mor Cohen 46:50
And you know, clients feel that right away? Yes,
Jason Resnick 46:53
absolutely. And and when they don’t argue with you about your prices, because they feel that you’re confident. But if you’re not confident in yourself, why would someone else trust you? Well said, awesome. Well, this has been fantastic. Obviously, we’ll link everything up in the show notes design class, that IO. And everything that we mentioned here, Facebook, and all the rest of it will link up in the Show Notes. But where can people reach out and say thanks?
Mor Cohen 47:22
Well, you can. Everyone can is welcome to join my facebook group. It’s called the web design and branding community. growing every day and I love it, I spend a lot of time in it. I share a lot of resources and people share their designs and you know, we critique each other. It’s, it’s an amazing group that I love. But you know, everyone can please feel free to reach out to me via Facebook or email more at flicks frame.
Jason Resnick 47:56
com. I’d love to hear from you. Awesome. link up all of those in the show notes. Obviously, more. Thank you for coming on and sharing your experience with us today. do appreciate it. And I know the listeners do as well. Thank you for having me. It’s been amazing. And for everyone listening Till next time, short time to live in the feast.
If you enjoyed today’s episode, I could speak for both Mor and myself by saying that we’d love to hear the one takeaway that you got from this episode. It’s super simple. In the podcast app of your choice, presumably this one that you are listening to right now drop in a comment or review or go ahead and share it in a tweet and tag me at Resnick on Twitter. Hit that subscribe button as well so that you’ll be the first to listen in next week. But we have a great episode with Alex McClatchy, CEO, coach and co founder of WP curve. There’s anyone who knows the value of pricing and how to scale it. It’s him and we’ll dive deep into that. Until then it’s your time to live in the feast.
Season 6: Pricing
More episodes in this season:
S06 E01 – Value-based Pricing, Impactful SEO Techniques, and Creating Great Client Relationships with Brendan Hufford
S06 E02 – Generosity, Pay What You Want Pricing, and Lowering the Barrier to Entry with Tom Morkes
S06 E03 – Developing Client Relationships, Leveling Up Your Pricing, and Getting Better at Business with Chris Do
S06 E04 - LinkedIn, Pricing Strategies, and Why Video is the Medium of the Future with David Kilkelly
S06 E05 - Mindset and How Goals Inform Your Pricing with Vito Peleg
S06 E06 - Consulting, Pricing, and Understanding your Clients with Hillary Weiss
S06 E07 - Case Studies, Client Research, and How To Create Killer Conversion Copywriting with Joel Klettke
S06 E08 - Story Lines, Positioning, and How To Differentiate Your Business with April Dunford
S06 E09 - Pricing Your Productized Services and Working with Intention with Brian Casel
S06 E10 - Knowing Your Audience, Making Mistakes, and Pricing Products vs Services with Jack McDade
S06 E11 - Creating Results and Building Relationships Through Your Pricing with Mor Cohen
S06 E12 - Undercharging, Targeting the Wrong Audience, and What You Should Do About It with Alex McClafferty