Today's co-host is Adam Clark. Adam is a fellow podcaster and the founder of Podcast Royale, a company that helps business owners grow their businesses and save time through done-for-you podcast production and marketing.

Adam and I have been friends for years, and Podcast Royale produces this very podcast. We were talking recently about ideal clients and how that relates to “founder market fit”, and we decided to record our conversation and share it with you.

Adam is a self-described serial entrepreneur. Over the last 20 years, he's started half-a-dozen businesses and gone through just as many different careers. He used to see this as a negative thing — a lack of discipline or self-control. But in recent years, he's come to see it as a strength.

The most important thing is to figure out what you really want out of life (and business). You won't make much progress until you've taken the time to deeply understand your ultimate goals and desires.

'Most people do what they do because it’s what they’ve always done, or because they’ve been told, or believe, it’s what they're supposed to do. We rarely take the time to examine our lives and really ask what it is we actually want. Because it’s easier to just keep doing what we’re doing than it is to change — even if that change means a greater level of happiness and freedom in the future.' @avclark

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In this episode Adam talks about:

  • The importance of finding founder market fit, and not just product-market fit.
  • How your values and ultimate desires should be the foundation of your business and inform your ideal client.
  • Giving yourself permission to pursue what truly matters you, even if it's risky.

Main Takeaways

  • In order to understand your business and your ideal client, you have to know yourself, and what you truly value. And this knowledge only comes from time and experience. Try things, and be willing to fail.
  • If you're not sure what you want, or who your ideal client should be, start with what you don't want, or who you don't want to work with. Sometimes it's easier to know what you don't want, than what you do want. And that's ok.
  • Give yourself permission to explore, and pursue what feels right to you, even if it goes against traditional business wisdom. It's better to figure that out early, than to get really good at something you hate doing.

Important Mentions in this Episode

Adam Clark 0:00
Most people do what they do, because it’s what they’ve always done, or because they’ve been told or believe it’s what they’re supposed to do. I mean, we rarely take the time to examine our lives and really ask what it is we actually want. Because it’s easier to just keep doing what we’re doing then is to change even if that change means a greater level of happiness and freedom in the future.

Jason Resnick 0:36
Hey, Feasters Welcome to Episode Six of season seven of live in the feast. I am Jason aka rezzz helping you grow your business or having a conversation with someone who’s been there had success and built the business designed around the life they want to live that’s live in the feast. If this is your first time listening Hit that subscribe button so that you get notified every time a brand new episode drops. Live in the feast is in your podcast app of choice. And if it isn’t, let me know and I will get it there. If you’ve heard the show before, leave us a review in iTunes. Or why not drop us a comment in breaker or cast box. Today’s co host is Adam Clark. I’ve known Adam for a number of years and like myself, he’s a family man loves talking with other entrepreneurs and lives the life of his own design. Adam is the founder of Podcast Royale and full disclosure. He does all the amazing work that is behind the scenes of this podcast. Once it has been recorded, Adam takes over. It does his magic to make me and the co-hosts of this show sound amazing. Pretty much everything after I press stop on the Recording, including the show notes, music, slicing and dicing of the show. That’s all Adam. Adam has worked in the podcast space for a long time, and in fact worked at Apple for a number of years back. we dive in a little bit into that in this episode. He is the go to resource for me when it comes to podcasting. And when I shared the idea of this season with him, we started talking about our own philosophies and putting things into practice. I had to push pause on that conversation because it was that good. I wanted to have him on the show and share all of his great insights with you. And this episode we dive into being in a space where you are intimately familiar with will allow you to stand out and contribute even more value to your client. We talked about founder market fit and why it’s really important for service based and productized businesses. And then we also talk about values and how that plays into this as well as your ideal client evolves, and it will this is a great one. So here’s Adam and myself talking ideal clients.

Hey Feaster is welcome to another episode of live in the feast. I am super excited to bring on Adam today, bringing him back from behind the curtain if you will, and I’ll fully disclose this that Adam does all the production work on my podcast, he makes me sound like I am. He makes everything of the show that much better, especially if you’ve heard the the earlier seasons that was me and some of the later seasons that’s all Adam so he does an awesome job. And this is a topic that you know, me and Adam were talking about planning this season. We were just having that conversation as far as the ideal client, and you brought up a few things that you went through. And so I thought, yes, let’s have this conversation as a podcast. And so welcome, Adam.

Adam Clark 4:13
Yeah, for sure. Thanks for having me on. Man. I haven’t been a guest on a show in a while this year has I just tweeted yesterday, I got on Twitter for the first time forever. And was like anything interesting happened in 2019. Like, it’s it’s been one of those years where it was literally yesterday, it was January 1. And I don’t know how it’s flown by so fast.

Jason Resnick 4:32
Yeah, I don’t know how you break away from social media for that length of time. I don’t know. Like, I can do it on certain platforms. Twitter. For me, that’s just always the de facto like, I’m always on there.

Adam Clark 4:45
Yeah. Earlier, like a decade ago, I was like, you know, I have to be on social media for work for business for stuff like that. And the main reason this year is just because I just haven’t had time like there’s no there’s no time, you know, by the time the days over and then there’s families stuff and the one I missed the most is Instagram. I love posting daily Instagram stories and stuff like that. But it’s just haven’t had the time for it this year and honestly haven’t really missed any of it. I missed it a little bit, but not too much. And so eventually you hit a point where it’s not out of choice. It’s just necessity because there’s not any extra time in the day.

Jason Resnick 5:22
That’s usually Instagram for me, like I just fall off the wagon. I’m just like, you know what, forget it. I haven’t posted in my other than, like my kids birthday party or something. But uh, yeah, awesome. So we’re here, we’re talking about the ideal client, right? And, you know, we’re going to unpack a little bit about what that is looks like for you and how you got there and things like that, and, and some of the things that you look for, and it’s an evolving sort of thing in anybody’s business, really. And so I’d love to unpack that a little bit more. But before we dive in, who is your ideal client?

Adam Clark 5:59
Well, it’s evolved And we talked about this before, it’s always evolving. I have sort of my idea of who that would be. But it shifts it was one thing at the when I started a podcast. Well, it’s another thing now. And currently, I’m kind of focusing on entrepreneurs like smaller solopreneur type people usually making products or services and using podcasting, as a way of marketing that stuff. So essentially, like you, you know, is an example of that. So when you say an entrepreneur, that’s pretty broad, but I tend to focus on a specific kind of entrepreneur, which is what I just mentioned, and also people who are in the industries that I’m familiar with, which tend to be client services related to marketing and design and that that group

Jason Resnick 6:53
Yeah, okay, so I get entrepreneur like you said is Brian, why stick to folks that are doing client services where,

Adam Clark 7:02
yeah, it’s not so much that I’m sticking to client services or that I’ve chosen to focus on people who do services versus products. It’s just kind of happened that way. We definitely have some clients who make products, but they’re still sort of service oriented products in a way, they’re not a lot of like SAS companies or companies that just make a product and that that’s all they do. You know, because again, most of my clients tend to be smaller, and either their solo operations or they have very small teams, that kind of thing. So there’s usually a mix. And I think, and I’m sure we’ll get into this a little bit, but I think it kind of worked out that way, because that’s the world that I was in for so long. And that’s the world that I’m comfortable in. And I like working with those kinds of people. And I feel like I understand even though now I’m focusing on podcast, Fasting, which is a little bit different, I still feel like I understand what they’re doing and what they’re trying to do. And the needs and, and that kind of thing. So it’s more about the size, I would say then it is the actual deliverable that they

Jason Resnick 8:17
offer. Hmm, gotcha. Yeah. I mean, it makes sense. Because, I mean, obviously, what you do, especially for podcast hosts, I mean, one of the big reasons why we, you know, build our relationship as far as the working relationship goes is, for me, it was a lot of time. On the back end of it, I am not an audio guy by any stretch of the imagination. So just to even get to where it was somewhat sounding Okay, was like a lot of work for me. But also the other stuff like scheduling of posts, you know, the show notes and putting it up on the host and all of those other things. Even the show notes, the fact that you have that knowledge of that space and industry. You can also speak to in that voice I like you kind of know what they’re looking for. So I think that’s super important.

Adam Clark 9:07
Yeah. And I struggled with that even with like hiring people, because you’d hire people. And they might be a writer, they might have writing experience. But if we have, for example, a dev show or something related to a very technical topic, and the person who’s writing the show notes is listening and doesn’t understand anything that’s being talked about. The show notes aren’t going to be that great, you know, so, I’ve even thought about, you know, niching down further into something ultra specific, like podcast production for development shows or something like that, you know, I don’t think I’ll do that. But it’s just an example of being you know, the domain knowledge being familiar with what your clients do and who they serve.

Jason Resnick 9:53
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that that’s, I’ve learned that over the years to as far especially as I’ve gotten more away from the devil. encoding life and more into marketing and email automation and behavioral stuff. Yeah, me having the angle from much more casual, smaller business, you know, it’s not corporate, like it’s not highly tech down like medical fields and things like that. That language for me has always been easier for me to come by and understand and craft, right, my own clients and that’s those are my clients. They’re not those technical professionals, those medical doctors and, you know, huge corporations while I did work for those things in the past that’s not now So yeah, I think one of the one of the things that we we talked a little bit about and we were talking about, like product market fit, you hear that a lot, right, like what product market fit but you you brought up a good point about founder of market fit. Can you share a little bit more about what that look what that means for you?

Adam Clark 10:55
Yeah, I mean, you hear people talking about founder market fit and You know, if you Google that you’ll see a bunch of articles. And I tend to think it’s, it’s really important because podcasts warehouser productize service, and we tend to work with clients who also have product type services. I really just like that mix. I really like the idea of product type services, it feels like just right for me, but when you especially when you’re doing a productized service, I feel like the founder market fit is really important because it matters if you like, who you work with, and especially if it’s a smaller business, and you tend to be in contact with people on a regular basis, the ability to understand them and know what their needs are, and empathize with them and also enjoy working with them is a big deal. So I think it’s true that those things aren’t always necessarily the most important things. But it comes down to what you want. I mean, like, I’ve constantly been given the advice to move up market, you know, like find companies that have more money to spend focus on customers who have bigger budgets and all that kind of stuff. And I do kind of kind of want to say I pursued that I did look into it a little bit. I have friends who run companies that are much bigger, and have much larger amounts of revenue and marketing budgets and marketing teams and everything. But for me, it just came down to the fact that I didn’t enjoy working with those businesses. You know, I didn’t enjoy as much like you say, the process of working with a large marketing team and all that comes with that. Sure, there is more money involved in that. But there’s also other trade offs, you know, and I like working with smaller b2b businesses. And even more specifically, I just like the whole entrepreneur. Worship category like that lane. You know, people like you people like me, you know, all our mutual friends that we interact with online at conferences and meetups and stuff for the last decade, I just get a lot of energy and excitement out of this category of people. So it is a trade off because I can’t charge $5,000 a month, you know, where I might be able to do that with larger companies. It affects pricing, which affects everything else about the business as well. But at the end of the day, I’m happier. And so it kind of, you know, it ties into what is it that you really want and I don’t think a lot of people not they don’t ask themselves what they what they really want. But I don’t think they put a lot of effort into figuring that out or a lot of stock in the answer. Like it almost doesn’t matter what you really want. It matters, what brings you the most money or something like that.

Jason Resnick 13:56
Right? And I found this just in regard to To You know, entering coaching, you know, being a mentor and coach over the past couple of years is that when you ask somebody why they started in the first place, and often is they’re not almost honest with themselves, like, they want to say the right thing, not what actually is, and it’s okay that it and I say this too, it’s like, if you’re in it for the money, that’s fine. There’s no wrong answer if you’re not and so, and like to your point, I mean, you know, I know like myself, you’re a big family guy. And and that’s what’s important and hearing just how you unpack that and keeping that front of mind, I guess you could go chase that $5,000 a month client, and you can do an awesome job for them. But at the end of the day, if it’s sucking the life out of you and picking up time for away from your family and things like that, it’s just not worth it. And I feel the same way.

Adam Clark 14:53
Yeah, and it’s not even like money is the only trade off because I’m in it for the money to obviously I you know, want to make Money. And that’s a big part of it. But each different kind of client requires a different kind of process. So it’s not even that like necessarily that would take more time or just be, you know, miserable or whatever. But the way I like to run my business and the way the process I like to have in place, the way I like to do things, works best with solo creators and makers, which in a way, it makes it very difficult because that group typically doesn’t have a lot of extra money. So it makes it even more narrow because I have to find entrepreneurs and small businesses who also are profitable, you know, they figured out how to be profitable and they have a certain amount of money to spend on their marketing efforts. But the advantages of being able to work within the process I like best are worth that to me. So again, it comes back to what do I really want? or What does each individual entrepreneur really want.

Jason Resnick 16:13
Adam talks here about the nuance to his ideal client, namely the types of budgets that they have. It’s a really smart insight into how well he knows his ideal client. He really has validated that type of client and worked within that space for such a long time that he’s empathetic to this situation, but he also knows the value that his service brings to them. If you want worksheets and exercises, and the ability to create the ideal client and precise solution to offer that client so that you can actually be that go to resource and build a sustainable business, head over to feast today, as a member, you’ll get the processes and tips flitz to not only figure out who your ideal client and services that you can provide for them, but you’ll also learn how to figure out the price to put on those services. That makes it a complete no brainer for the client. That’s why I want to invite you to check out feast by using the code founder. You get your first month for only $20. Look, feast is the community and resource hub for developers and designers ready to get off that project searching hamster wheel and actually run the business that they set out to build feast helps position you in the market with what you do, who you help, and helps you build the processes and systems for client management, sales, marketing, delivery, and of course pricing. Your business isn’t the same as everyone else’s. And this is where feast differentiates itself from everything else out there. When you are a member of the You get personalized guidance from myself. It’s essential for me to meet you where you are. And make sure that you’re getting the exact tools so that you don’t get lost in the shuffle. See, the moment you sign up, we’re going to have a chat, so that I can create a custom syllabus of resources within fees to meet you where you are. If you want to stop chasing down that next project all the time, so that you can start living your life, go to feast and use the code founder at checkout for your first month for only $20.

It’s key here to point out that while you work with that specific kind of entrepreneur, like we’ve been talking about, but also it’s the entrepreneur that realizes the value You podcast right? What they’re doing already has traction, they have to recognize that and then knowing that you can then say, Okay, I can see that their marketing they’re doing podcasts they’re have 1500 episodes in the can already so this is something that they’re not just going to try and and hope sure that that it works right and so some of those identifying factors there is key and helping you be able to target the specific entrepreneur there and obviously, yeah, I mean, you know, I’m kind of a writer I much rather just pull up a microphone and have a conversation with somebody then write a blog post but yeah, much to the other side of things is like, um, you know, people are like, Hey, you got to start doing more video you got to start doing it and I’m like, okay, that’s fine. And I don’t mind doing that stuff. But it’s just now I have to set up this whole other thing right and the lighting perfect and will for me audio just jives. I have the process. It works and so far, it’s been been beneficial for me my business? So totally get it?

Adam Clark 20:04
Yeah, I mean, figuring out what it is you’re offering and who it’s really for. You’ve done a whole seasons about this. I mean, it’s really critical. And that’s the thing is, though, as it evolves, because I those things have changed for me from the beginning. You know, I initially thought I was offering one thing. And then like six months in, I talked to our clients and find out, well, none of them felt like that’s what they were getting. They were all buying the service for a different reason. And so, you know, then I started to focus on that. And, and even that was a was a bit of a struggle, like, is that really what I want to do? Is that what I want to be working on every day? Is that the value I want to offer or if there’s something different, and in one hand, it sounds like a great problem to have that you can think about what you really want to be doing rather than what you have to be doing. I don’t mean to make it sound like there aren’t parts of this that are just like well, you just have to suck it up and do this Because you need the client through, you need the money or whatever, they’re certainly part of that to it. But it’s cool to be able to think about a certain kind of value that I want to be able to provide and, and being able to focus on that. And so all these things are interconnected is what I’m trying to say.

Jason Resnick 21:15
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, when I was talking with Brian castle, who was on last season, and he was saying, like, when he first started, you know, he’s a designer. He knew that Yeah, realm, right. And when he talked about restaurant engine, he was trying to build something with no domain knowledge. He’s trying to solve a problem that they didn’t, that he thought that they had. And once he realized that, you know, he only he could take the company so far because of that. He sold it and then he’s worked in his own domain of what he knows best. And it’s totally like that whole founder market fit idea for me. I get product market fit, but for me, I feel like founder market is The place that you really have to understand you have to be honest with yourself, really understand the market we’re going to, and who you’re going to serve, and then come back into a product that serves that market. Yeah, yeah, that’s what, you know, mutual friend, Alex McLaren, he talks about a lot of times, it’s like, you know, talk about you figure out what it is that’s important to you, and how you the business that not what you’re doing, but the business, the type of business that you want to run, understand what that looks like. Yeah, and then figure out how product fits into that.

Adam Clark 22:31
Yeah, because what we’re talking about here are values, you know, and that’s one of the biggest thing is like alignment of values that the people that you’re going to be serving and working for, essentially, that you’re aligned in, in all these different areas. And it’s not like you’re thinking about all these explicitly when you’re filling out documents or going through ideal client exercises or avatar exercises or whatever. But these are important things to think through this Know that when you’re selling and when you’re in these conversations, you can tell whether this client is going to be a good fit or not. And it’s more than just whether or not they can afford it. And whether or not they’re willing to say yes, which is where a lot of people find themselves, it’s just take whatever they can get, you know, but I find that a key element of being happy Kind of day to day is that alignment of values and alignment of worldview, and that ties into the kinds of services you offer, and the way in which you offer them, then it’s it’s almost like an extension of your own business. You know, you’re the biggest thing for me is it’s like, I feel like I’m working with friends. I feel like my clients are my friends. They’re people I would hang out with in real life. And for a long time, I thought, well, that’s just a pipe dream. that’s unrealistic. You know, I can’t expect to build a business where my clients are my friends, I mean, maybe to a certain level, but it could never scale. It would never be able to grow beyond a certain point, and maybe that is true, I don’t know. But it’s so far, being able to work with the kind of people that I want to work with people that I would call friends, has been worth it.

Jason Resnick 24:12
So before we get into because you brought up some of those exercises and things like and I want to hear your input on those, those things, but before we do that, what would you consider your defining moment life so far?

Adam Clark 24:26
Man, that’s tough one, because I feel like I’ve had so many epiphanies in my life because I’m constantly in search of like self discovery, you know, like, Who am I? What am I here for? And what is my purpose in life? Like, I’ve been asking myself these questions since I was six. So it tends to lead to a lot of like, quote, discoveries about oneself. So I feel like there are so many sort of defining moments, but I guess more recently, in the last five years or so there were a couple things And the first one, the more personal one was when my youngest daughter was born. She’s four now, but she was born. We were in California, I was working for Apple at the time. And it was just, it was a really dark time in my life. And she just brought this incredible joy. You know, it’s hard to explain it sounds super cheesy. And, and I have two older daughters too. So it’s not like, you know, it was there was something different about this one. And I think what it made me realize in that moment was that happiness is achievable. Right? sounds kind of silly, like, Well, obviously, happiness is achievable. But I feel like I just been in a period of just constant struggle for so long. It felt like, you know, this is just all there is, you know, it’s constantly struggling to make the business work constantly struggling to make relationship to work, and make your marriage work and make the finances work and all these things. And it was kind of just this moment of like, what what’s really important you know, what What really makes me happy and what doesn’t and that kind of thing. And the second thing related to that is around the same time, I was really asking myself this question of what is it that I really want? I’ve talked about this so much over the years on different shows and things. But related to the idea of happiness is, what do you really want? You know, what do you really want out of life and realizing that if I was willing to ask that question, and keep following the answer, kind of wherever I went, I could end up somewhere that mattered to me, you know, that I could uncover something or a series of answers that would be meaningful that I could reverse engineer a way to get there. And I think for me when I ultimately wanted was freedom, and you could say you call it happiness, but for me, happiness and freedom are kind of interchangeable, but and so whether that’s freedom spent time with my family or pursue my interests or make things create things, or just freedom to follow some rabbit trail of discovery and learn some new thing just because it was fascinating. You know, I really wanted to build a life that gave me that freedom. And I think most people do what they do, because it’s, it’s what they’ve always done, or because they’ve been told either directly or indirectly through cultural norms or whatever, but that this is what they should do. These are the these are the options. They don’t ever take time to examine their lives and ask what is it that they really want? And then take the next step of figuring out how to accomplish that like, we all sort of daydream about stuff like that, man, what if I could have this or could achieve that or live here or whatever, but we don’t take those things seriously. You know, most people think about that stuff and then they go to bed and get the next morning go to their job or you know, it’s not We think about that and go, Okay, well, how do I actually make that a reality? And then when you start doing that, you go well? Is that really what I want that if I’m going to go after this, is that what I really want? And this isn’t something that you just figure out. It’s not a question you ask yourself, and three days later, you got an answer. I thought about this stuff for a decade. And you know, all through my 20s. I’ve got two months left in my 30s. And I feel like I still don’t know what I want to be when I grow up. But it’s, it has it’s only been in the last few years that I feel like, I’ve been able to somewhat answer that question, like, figure out what it is that I actually want, and then sort of a path of how I might get there. I remember driving down this road. I was leaving the office, and I was just thinking about that question. Like, I’m not really happy right now. And my daughter who was just born has kind of made me realize how unhappy I was. And that moment. So what am I really after, and we kind of romanticize those kinds of questions and leave them for movies and entertainment and stuff. But we don’t take it seriously that we can actually figure that out. And we can actually be happy and we can actually get what we want out of life. I don’t I don’t know. I don’t know why it is that. We don’t think that’s possible. Or at least I didn’t think that was possible. So it was a pretty big moment for me.

Jason Resnick 29:27
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, premise of this show is to have conversations with people that live their life of their own design, right. That’s the basic premise of this show, because very similarly, I did the same thing. I didn’t know. Look, I’m 42. I still don’t know what I want to be when I grow up. Right. So. So yeah, I got some years on you. But at the same time, I know when I was 14, that I didn’t want to wake up and work at a place or spend the entire day that I dreaded doing right. And this was something that I realized when I was 14, I didn’t know what that would look like. I didn’t even know that was possible that was pre internet. So, at this point in time, I was on the trajectory for the traditional job sitting in a cube somewhere, right. And so, yeah, you know, over a period of time, it’s evolved that that has morphed into things. And you know, similarly, when my first son was born, I didn’t know at that time that I had realized a dream that I had. And yeah, that changed the trajectory of my business, my life, what I wanted to do and things like that. And because I hadn’t realized one of those dreams of being able to be home, see first steps here, those first words and those sort of things. And I all I wanted to do at that point in time, and that was, I remember because it was the drive home from the hospital. And I, you know, it was like, how can I help more people have this moment? And I was like, Well, I’m nobody special developer. I can help other developers do what I did. It’s not you know, rocket science. It’s just, it’s hard work. You have to put in the work. But yeah, but yeah, I mean, that’s stuff. It’s fun. Like, yeah, yeah, we kind of joke about, like, when we grow up sort of thing, but yeah, I mean, from time to time things, get a shift change all that stuff. I mean, having two sons, you know, with your kids as well like those point times for me like, moments in time that have shifted my mindset. And both times,

Adam Clark 31:19
well, I think to that, like I said, it takes having experiences, that’s the other thing. It’s like, I used to do that I’d be like, what do I maybe specific to business, you know, one of my freelance businesses or something, you know, what do I want this thing to be? And but I didn’t have any experience to draw for it. So that’s why I say it’s like, I don’t know that you can figure this out in your 20s maybe you can, but like, I couldn’t, because, you know, I just didn’t have enough various views on things to to even be able to go well, this is what I don’t want, you know, and this is what I do want. And so at this point, I’ve had like 15 different careers and I don’t think that’s gonna stop. I just, you know, kind of, that’s part of it too, I kind of accepted that about myself is that, you know, I did the whole corporate cubicle thing I’ve done that I’ve done Freelancer thing. I’ve done just all sorts of different things. And so I feel like I have a better perspective on what makes me happy. What doesn’t. And it’s true, it’s very freeing to be able to feel like, I’m working on something that is getting me somewhere and has meaning behind it has purpose, you know, has purpose to my life. And those were big things that I felt like I didn’t have for the longest time. Like I was just doing what I was doing, because it was the next thing to do. I there was no, it wasn’t getting me or

Jason Resnick 32:45
Yeah, I mean, I think you know, to sum that up is like I think a lot of people, they don’t give themselves permission to be there. Like they get those pressures to do the traditional, hey, I have to sit in a cubic or I have to take on my father’s business or you There’s some, you know, traditional legacy norm that they have to follow and such. And so, when people romanticize, like you said about what is it that they want? And how do they want their lives to look? They don’t give themselves permission to be that way. Right. So that’s why they do shelve it. And they say, Okay, that’s good for the movies. It’s not good to me.

Adam Clark 33:22
Well, let’s see me like Tim Ferriss talks about, you know, asking the question, what’s the worst that could happen? Like, what is it that you’re afraid of, and then logically follow that out to its natural end, and often you realize that, okay, the worst that could happen isn’t really that bad, right? We just assume that if we, if you take this leap, or you do this thing, you know, the worst that could happen is everybody dies or something. And it’s, and it’s not really, you know, maybe you go bankrupt, and maybe for some people, that would be a horrible thing. I don’t know, but, but it’s probably not even that is what I’m trying to say, you know, the worst thing that could happen is actually not that bad, but We when we know these things if we actually think about them, and like you said, Give yourself permission to, to go there and process all this and try things and experiment. And I just think most people don’t do that. Because it’s hard. Why? Right? It’s hard work. I don’t know if it was Joe Rogan, someone said, accomplishing that kind of stuff takes a lot of discipline. And I think most people would rather trade you know, like future happiness and freedom for momentary comfort. You know, it is easier to just keep doing what you’ve been doing, because that’s what you know, and, you know, the paycheck is arriving every two weeks or whatever, you know, whatever. The thing is that you know, it’s easier just to stick with that even if you’re not happy. But if you have the discipline, then you can accomplish the thing that you want to accomplish whatever that may be, and be much better off down the road but it is scary and it is really hard work.

Jason Resnick 35:00
Yeah, no 100% agree. So we talked to touch a little bit about the customer avatar exercises and things like that. Did you do any of that sort of thing when you’re thinking about podcasts or I’ll and in the initial stages or even maybe after a year or two of it being out and about, you say, hey, look, maybe I could focus in maybe there’s an exercise or some method that I could put myself through to get that ideal client.

Adam Clark 35:29
Yeah, I did those there. There are a bunch. And if you’re like me, you have purchased a million online courses around topics like defining your audience and building your business and growth and all that sort of stuff. And every single one of them has some sort of customer avatar exercise or whatever. I mean, I have my own forms that I have clients go through about kind of identifying an ideal listener and figuring out what success looks like for a podcast. So I definitely Went through those things. And I think they’re really they’re useful to do when I launched podcast for a while I had an idea of who the client would be. And that’s sort of how it’s ended up being. But I think that’s only because this isn’t my first time launching a business. You know, I’ve done this multiple times before and, and multiple venues like multiple verticals, if you will. And so, so I kind of already had some ideas about that. But I think they’re really useful in especially if you haven’t done them before, but also in broadening your horizons a little bit to what the possibilities are. And I found usually what works better for me is almost working from a negative like a lot of people have a really hard time answering the question, what do they want, or who is their ideal customer, I find that they have an easier time answering what they don’t want, or who they don’t want to work with. And then start there and then framing who you want to work with in a different with different words. Like, what would successful quitting? What would success look like for your podcast? What would success look like for your business? You know, a year from now, it’s successful beyond your wildest dreams. What are you doing that day? specifically? What are you doing that day? What do you spend your typical day doing? who you’re working with? And you have these conversations, I’ll have these conversations with clients, and they’ll just be talking, and they’ll say something. And I’m like, that’s it right there. You just said what you want. And they’re like, yeah, I guess that’s true. You know, and but when I asked him, What is it that you actually want? Or what are you actually trying to achieve? They have a hard time answering that. But just getting them talking about something like that, oftentimes will arrive at the same conclusion, right?

Jason Resnick 37:45
Yeah, no, I love that. I mean, anytime I’ve altered my ideal client, or shifted or pivoted or whatever you want to say. It’s always been off of the back of a negative. Yeah, I never really thought about it until this season, to be out of with you when I was like, What exercises if I’ve done right, like, you know, when we first started talking about, you know what this season was going to look like, you know, I look back on the pivot points that I do an exercise that I think about certain things like what could I do so that when you can have folks like yourself come on the show, like, I could relate, right? And we’re, you know, ask pointed questions in a way. And so it’s funny how knowing who you don’t want to work with is so much easier than trying to figure out who you do want to work with. Because I think in my own head, it’s so finite, like, I can pinpoint exactly the type of person that type of project that type of things I don’t want to do. But yet when I think about who I’m potentially want to work with, that is like the horizon, right, like, Yeah, I don’t know who’s out there. Like I can kind of maybe think about some of the things but it doesn’t really pinpoint exactly. Whoo. But once you do the negative work, or the negative characteristics, then you have red flags, right? And that’s kind of how I look at it is like, Okay, well, if they start taking off some of those red flags, then I know that that’s not gonna work. So I think that was that was helpful for me initial stages to identify those red flags and sounds like Same thing for you.

Adam Clark 39:19
I mean, I don’t know why. But it always does seem to be easier to focus on the negative for those of you out there who are married and have had a fight with your spouse, not that I’ve ever gone through that. And 13 years of marriage never fought. But you know, you remember those things, you tend to remember those things a little more than sometimes the positive moments. And the same thing is true with like work. It’s like you get a day off and don’t know what to do with yourself, but you’re just happy that you’re not working. So the point is, it doesn’t really matter how you get there. You know, the point is, to get there to figure out what it is you really want who it is you really want to work with. What You really want to offer and sometimes approaching that from negative experiences, like he said, it adds a lot of contrast that it makes it pretty clear what those things are, who those people are, etc.

Jason Resnick 40:12
Yeah. So before I let you go, what’s up next for the next 612 months?

Adam Clark 40:18
I think the next phase for me is to really focus on customer acquisition, which is a fancy way of saying sales side. So I’ve never been great at sales. I’ve always relied on referrals. My first freelance business as a web designer was all referral from day one. And it was great that I was able to make an income based off referrals. But it was super nerve wracking because you never knew you’re at the mercy of someone emailing you. And you also end up taking on work you don’t really want to do because it’s all that’s available at the moment. And then somewhere along the line, I discovered recurring revenue, which is the greatest thing ever. I don’t know why it took 20 years to discover that and it’s it’s been amazing and But even with recurring revenue, it’s easy to just get into the daily rhythm of meeting your deliverables and deadlines. And the point is, if you’re not selling, if you’re not reaching out doing reach outs, if not on a daily basis, then you know, a regular basis, you’re not going to grow, you know, and then you lose a client or two, and you find yourself back in the feast or famine kind of thing. And so, the big thing for me is figuring out how to do more sales work and growing those skills, because I’m not great at that. But it’s just like anything else you can learn that you know, and it’s kind of finding the time and dedicating myself to actually actually doing that. The methods I have now worked pretty well, but I just need to do more of

Jason Resnick 41:47
you know, awesome. Yeah, well, if Hey, anybody wants a glowing testimonial from me? Adam does an awesome job. best part about and this is you know, Adam didn’t prompt me. He could give me the 20 later if you want, but the best part about working with Adam is that he’s always open to conversation, questions, thoughts, feedback, all of that stuff. For me, he’s helped me craft this podcast that you’re listening to right now, in a way that not just makes sense for you guys, but also for me as well. And he’s made me a better host on doing that. And so I really truly appreciate you, Adam, and everything that you do for me and all of your wisdom on the podcast side as well as on the personal side to value our friendship. So I was super excited to have you on the show here today. Where can folks since you do these, like social media sabbaticals, and whatnot, where can folks reach out and say, Thanks for this?

Adam Clark 42:48
Well, first of all, thanks for having me on the show. This was fun. And I’m always down to talk. I always enjoyed doing that. And I would still say Twitter because I still get notifications. Just not, I just don’t sit there for an hour improves anymore because whenever that happens, I find myself hating the world and everyone when I do that, so, but I’m Avi Clark on Twitter and podcast route net. Those are probably the two best spots

Jason Resnick 43:18
also. Well, thank you, Adam, and for being here, I appreciate it.

Adam Clark 43:23
Yeah, man.

Jason Resnick 43:24
Thanks for everyone listening. Till next time, take your time to live in the feast.

If you enjoyed today’s episode, I could speak for both Adam and myself by saying that we’d love to hear the one takeaway that you got from this episode. It’s super simple. In the podcast app of choice, presumably this one you are listening to right now. Drop in a comment or review Go ahead and share it in a tweet and tag me at rez. That’s with three Z’s on Twitter. Don’t forget to also hit that subscribe button so that you’ll be the first to listen in next week. We’ll be back with Paul Sokol. Paul has built a business around automation in Infusionsoft of now keep I guess, but he also has a business built around event marketing, and we’re going to talk about how he’s overcome some of the misconceptions in the event industry and validating the avatar as well. Till then, your time to live in the feast.

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